5 Questions, 60 Seconds, 20 New Clients with John Meese

Chris: [00:00:00] I do think there's a lot of people who have decades of experience in their field who are thinking about legacy.
Chris: And sometimes they start these sort of like vanity personal brands where they're like, "Oh, it doesn't have to make money. I just need to like share my message with, the world." and I mean, honestly I'd love for them to know that free advice doesn't leave lasting impact.
Intro - Outro: You're listening to the Seven Figure Leap podcast. We're here to leverage rich relationships and smart strategies to take your business to the next level. Here's your host, Dustin Riechmann.
Dustin: Welcome to the Seven Figure Leap podcast. Uh, it's a very special time here. I actually have a repeat guest today, but, my interview today with John Meese is actually gonna be less of an interview and more of a live coaching session.
Dustin: uh, John has joined us previously if you wanna know more of his background. he's a good friend, a business, uh, bestie as, as we like to [00:01:00] refer to each other. And interestingly, I'm working with John right now in his Authority Guild arm of his business to write and publish my first business book. But the reason we're together today is that John has a book coming out very soon called Sold Out Coach.
Dustin: And so what we wanna do is, of course, learn more about the book and get some of John's wisdom on, uh, his experience in the publishing process. But the primary goal today is for me to coach John through a podcast guesting strategy to support his goals for this book launch. So, uh, John, welcome back. It's great to have you here.
Dustin: I think as a way to launch into this and get right into the meat, I know you've written several books before and, uh, what, what we're gonna be referring to as an authority book. Uh, I'd love to hear a little bit of your experience with that, what you've learned, and we can kinda use that as our, initial context as we think about what you might wanna do differently or what we might wanna leverage that's worked in the past as you go to launch Sold Out Coach.
Chris: Sure. Happy to. Thank you for having me back, Dustin. Glad to be back. the, uh, [00:02:00] this is my fourth book, which is kind of weird to say, like, 'cause I feel like I'm still... There's still a lot to learn about this process. in some ways, I feel like this should be my 12th book or it should be my se- first book.
Chris: I don't know. But, uh, it's my fourth, right? So I've published three books before now. and so each of the books has been relatively successful. Each of those has been number one bestsellers multiple times, uh, and in their categories on Amazon. Uh, each of those books has led to, you know, thousands of book sales and hundreds of clients, you know, which is really honestly a big part of this, is, like, actually creating clients from that.
Chris: And I learned when I published my first book that the phrase, "I am an author," is a life sentence. That once you say that, it completely changed how people perceive you, allows you to sort of skip the line in terms of credibility in your industry And so that's something I've kept with me, and I think, and I'll always keep with me, right?
Chris: Like I, I am an author and I'm, I'm be- and dare I even say a best-selling author. Um, I, I used to always say I was the author of the best-selling books and I would like list the titles. But then last year around, I think last year around Black Friday, I got to a point where all three of my [00:03:00] books were number one bestsellers at the same time, and I was like, "Okay, I think at this point we can say it's probably the author who may be the common theme here."
Chris: And then I started saying best-selling author.
Dustin: Yeah, you gotta take on that identity. So, with this book, I think, just so the readers know like what this is about before we get into the specific strategy around marketing it, tell us a little bit more about Sold-Out Coach, what's the problem it seeks to solve, and who's the ideal reader for this book?
Dustin: And then, uh, we'll get more into your goals for the book. But I'd love to talk about what this book is so that people can start to put that cap on when they think about how to apply these strategies to their own endeavors.
Chris: Yeah. So this book is called Sold-Out Coach: Exactly How to Earn $10,000 or More Per Month Group Coaching 90 Minutes Per Week.
Chris: And it's honestly, it's my full playbook that I already teach inside of my group coaching program, Sold-Out Coach Club. So it's kind of meta 'cause it's a book about a group... about how to sell group coaching based on my own group coaching program, and then my hope is also to use the book to sell my group coaching program, right?
Chris: So there's like a lot of things going on there. yeah, the book is called Sold-Out Coach. The com- uh, my [00:04:00] program's called Sold-Out Coach Club, right? So there's natural affinity there. Uh, it's definitely the book that's the most closestly, the closest related to my offer. My last book, Serve to Sell, is exactly how to sell premium programs with one free coaching call, which has done great for creating clients for me.
Chris: But that book is basically me double-clicking on one of the tactics I teach in my group coaching program and then turning that into a book, uh, which has been great. There's been lots of reasons why I could say like that book... I'm gonna say as an example, that book definitely did better for me commercially than any of my, than either of my other books before it, in part because I think two things.
Chris: One is right out of the bat, the title communicates my authority, right? So that we talk about this in the Authority Guild, like the authority byline test of if you say like, "I am John Meese, author of..." Try the title without the subtitle and see does it do anything for you. My first book was called Survive and Thrive.
Chris: John Meese, author of Survive and Thrive does not tell you anything about what I am actually the expert of. and I used to joke, I used to say, "It sounds like it should probably be like a wilderness survival, book." And now there actually is a new wilderness survival book that's called Survive and Thrive that is now [00:05:00] more popular than my business book, Survive and Thrive
Chris: So yeah, go figure. so but with Serve to Sell, it immediately tells you a couple things right off the bat. You're like, "Oh, this guy is an authority on something related to sales or selling, and he's leading with serve to sell," which is a little bit of a paradox that makes you go, "Oh, I'm interested about that.
Chris: I wanna know how do I have a service-based or, approach to selling." Even on the cover, you know, there's a dollar sign for anybody watching on the video. You, if you're not watching the video, you just have to imagine this or go to Amazon, look at it. But there's a heart and there's a dollar sign on the cover, so it's meant to like kinda communicate this tension right off the bat.
Chris: So that's great. I mean, that book ha- it's a short, useful book. People love it. people recommend it. And actually, one thing I think that is unique about that book that I don't have here is that it's a very flexible... It's like, it's, it's like basically I'm giving people a, a tool they can take into a lot of different situations.
Chris: So for example, right after that book came out, I got a chance to go in and go to... So Donald Miller's book, Coachbuilder, had just come out, and I got invited by our mutual friend Macy Robinson to go into the s- [00:06:00] uh, StoryBrand community and to teach the Serve to Sell method. I've, I don't think they're gonna want me to teach the Sold Out Coach method because they have a book called Coachbuilder that's also, I think, red actually, now that I think about it.
Chris: It's, anyways, it's just, it's close enough that it's confusing, right? Versus me coming in and teaching a sales technique. That opened up all kinds of partnership opportunities where people could have me in and teach that, and it helped their bigger framework. This book's my whole framework, right? And so, I mean, I'm happy to teach this.
Chris: Donald, Don, if you're listening, I'm happy to teach this in the StoryBrand community. But I'm just like But I just, uh, I don't know. I have my doubts. Um, so my, my other two books, my first two books were more of a leak to the product. Serve to Sell was sort of a, "Hey, this one tool," and you go, "I want the whole toolbox," right?
Chris: Now I'm selling the whole toolbox. so that's kind of where we're at.
Dustin: That's good, and I like that context because before we can talk about how to market your book, an important premise is that you have a book that's marketable, and you have a book that is aligned with your goals for your business, [00:07:00] right?
Dustin: And that's why I'm working with John on my own book, uh, because what precedes the launch and the marketing and all the things we're about to get into u- as a strategy is the book itself. What's the promise of the book? Obviously, the title and subtitle are a huge part of that. And you already started to allude to how you position a book opens or closes certain doors, right?
Dustin: So some books will be super niche or niche, right? And, uh, they will maybe open more doors from that standpoint, but they maybe aren't positioning you as the deeper authority for the type of transformation you can actually provide, which I know is a big part of what Sold-Out Coach is. It's your full framework, and it's the full, holistic approach to creating these sold-out coaching programs, which is really what you're known for, more so than the sales technique that is part of that, right?
Dustin: Um, so I think that's a really good primer. And so, why don't we talk about, as we start to get into the strategy for this book, your goals for the book, right? anytime I walk through strategy [00:08:00] of any type, including for a book launch with podcast guesting, we always want to begin with the end in mind, right?
Dustin: Before we start talking about how many podcasts or which podcast or what stories do I tell, all of that needs to be aligned towards the outcome that you're actually wanting to drive. And so you and I are both believers in this idea that, uh, useful books are the thing that we want to create, and useful books mean people want to read them, they do read them, and they spread by word of mouth.
Dustin: So I think, you know, that's important to kind of say out loud. But when you think about all the blood, sweat, and tears you've put into creating this book and all the time, uh, that's ahead of you and, and all the work you're gonna do with podcast guesting and other ways to spread it, what's it gonna do for you?
Dustin: and what does it need to do for you for you to say that, "Yeah, this marketing strategy is really worth it and really feels aligned and something you can really get behind"?
Chris: Yeah. it's interesting. When you started to ask that question, I immediately started going to, like, the official goals in terms of, like, we can talk about, like, book sales and, you know, how, whether that turns into clients, that kind of stuff.
Chris: But what actually hit me, surprised me, which is [00:09:00] that, every year, I have at least two or three people that I talk to that tell me- I really wish I found your framework years, three years ago. That they say, uh, uh, this... I hear this at least a half dozen times a year, of someone saying, "I have s- wasted so much time and so much money trying to build my business online, and I've been so frustrated.
Chris: And now I see that your path is simple and it works to, you know, launch a single group coaching program that pays you at least $10,000 per month, group coaching 90 minutes per week, so you can buy back your time. So that you can then go have time to create books or courses or memberships without the s- the pressure of that, of getting cash out of the gate."
Chris: And I've had... There's so many people who told me, they're like, "I wish I found this before." They're like, "But I've already wasted so much time, so much money s- on these other strategies that just didn't work, that just didn't pay off." Sometimes in that case, I'm able to kind of rescue the person, almost like a wounded dog, and kind of bring them in and, like, say, like, you know, [00:10:00] "Come on, we got you," you know?
Chris: But honestly, a lot of times I can't. A lot of times people are like, "All right, let's try it," but they kind of already lost their spirit or they've lost their cash flow and then, and then I've just seen so many people give up. People with genuine wisdom, people with genuine knowledge and experience who get so frustrated on the online business model that they give up on their online business.
Chris: And we're all left, we're all left poor because of... I mean, because we're... The reality is my whole, like, life mission is to help steward wisdom, to collect, protect, and multiply knowledge and experience. And I think that having a sold out group coaching program is one of the... It's the best way to bring people into that space of saying, "Hey, you've already got experience.
Chris: You trying to figure out how to, like, grow that online?" well, my life was forever changed by a carpenter's son 2,000 years ago who started a sold out group coaching program, where he said- ... He had, he had unlimited resources, and there were a lot of people who said, "You should be loud and powerful, and you should be like the, like, you should be the Grant Cardone of the synagogue"-
Chris: is what they said. Um, and- That's right, yeah. I think that's what they said. Um, and then he said, "No, I'm good." And he, [00:11:00] for the next three years, he ran a sold out group coaching program with just 12 members who paid the highest price possible, and he changed the world forever. And so, like, I mean, whatever you think of Jesus Christ, I mean, I, I know Justin, you and I have a pretty high opinion of him.
Chris: But even if, if it was listeners who doesn't, like, you gotta, you gotta acknowledge the fact that is an established authority, right? And his business was built off of an occasional Sermon on the Mount, not a f- not a Sermon on the Mount on Facebook Live every day, right? So I just think the reality is there's so many reasons why having a sold out group coaching program is good.
Chris: Yes, it's good, you'll make money doing it, like, and that's the focus of the book is teaching how to do that. But also in the book, I teach you how this is the way you change the world, 'cause honestly, like, impacting people in these small group settings, Justin, I know you and I have both seen that with our own programs, the programs we've been in.
Chris: And so I just get really excited about saying the very nature of me having a sold-out group coaching program is, is there is a firm limit on how many clients I can personally work with every year, and I actually just lowered rather than raised that limit this year. so because of that, I'm like, well, but the idea still needs to get out there to more [00:12:00] people.
Chris: So yes, I have commercial goals attached to the book, but the bigger idea is that I just want this to change the landscape in terms of making it a lot easier for really smart professionals to build sold-out group coaching programs that can make the world a healthier, wealthier and happier place.
Dustin: Yeah. So the big transformation here is to empower really smart people, coaches, people with wisdom, lived experience, to be able to package that up and sell it profitably, uh, in a way that allows them to actually share that gift with the world without taking away from their own, family values and pr- other priorities, right?
Dustin: Hence the in 90 m- minutes a week, um, as part of the subtitle. So I think we've really established your passion for group coaching and why this is the way and why this is what you're called to teach. So let's talk about the book itself, though, as a tool, 'cause, like, you're already doing that. You already have sold-out group coaching programs.
Dustin: You haven't yet released this book. So why this book? Like, what is the ends that this book is the means toward, right? Like, let's talk specifically [00:13:00] about what is the job to be done of Sold-Out Coach the book in this bigger vision that you have, and then we can get a lot more practical about, okay, how do we actually get the book in front of the right people to accomplish those goals?
Chris: Yeah, I do expect that I, I... One, one of the rules that we apply at Victoria Gail that I've applied to this book is that it does need to be 100% DIY useful. And so my goal is that 100% of readers, when they read the book, will be already passed this test, like one and three, where they can read the book, apply it, and they can have a selective coaching program.
Chris: But I expect that maybe one in 50 or one in 100 people who read the book are gonna say, "Actually, I want help to apply this." And then they're gonna come over and join Sold-Out Coach Club to get help from me and my team to actually apply the Sold-Out Coach playbook to launch their own selective coaching program to earn $10,000 or $20,000 or $30,000 or $40,000, et cetera, a month, from group coaching.
Chris: And so that's the, commercial goal behind it I would say, um, is to honestly just get... is to get high-quality leads to get my bullseye target client, which is, you know, smart professionals with decades of experience in their industry that have already started to [00:14:00] build an online business. So they've attempted to build an email list, sell a course.
Chris: Like, they're not going... It's not a, it's not a cold start or a dry start from, like, zero, but they're also what I would call an emerging authority, right? So not somebody who... I'm not as focused on people who already have, s- multiple six-figure or seven-figure businesses. In this stage of my career, I'm not as focused on them and saying, "You know what?
Chris: Actually, there's the people who are coming from careers where they probably earn six figures as a professional, as a full-time professional or with one-on-one clients, and they're trying to figure out how to scale beyond that. And the best way to go from one-on-one to one-to-many is through one to few. and so that's, that's my target client, is, are someone who's...
Chris: they've started to... they're emerging authority is how I describe them.
Dustin: Yeah. And so what I heard in there is one of the ways you'll know you've won with this book is more leads, more qualified leads of your ideal client profile signing up for Sold-Out Coach Club, which is your premium flagship program.
Dustin: And that's a really important contrast because I think a lot of people maybe when, when they downloaded this [00:15:00] episode and they started listening, they're like, "Oh, this is one of those episodes where we talk about a quote unquote book launch," meaning we gotta sell 10,000 copies in the first week, hit the New York Times bestseller.
Dustin: You know, that is a model, and, uh, I think unfortunately, that's the model that we mostly see on social media, and that's, that's the one that gets the attention, right? That's not the model that actually meets your goals, and it's not the model that, uh... Which is good, 'cause it's not the model I was gonna get into as we get into, uh, you know, the actual strategy for launching your book successfully, which is a...
Dustin: You know, we're still gonna have a launch, and we're still gonna get some initial attention, right? But it's really about finding the right readers and partners to find more readers so that you can get a significant portion of those folks to ultimately enroll in your program. Like, so... And, and you said you had some- numbers, some metrics, some things in mind already.
Dustin: So whatever is already top of mind for you, I'd love to hear that. Like, when you think of, let's say, the first year with Sold Out Coach, and it's out in the [00:16:00] wild, and we get to maybe a recap episode a year from now, and we say, "It worked. It met John's desired goals," what would've happened for that, for you to be able to say that with, full integrity?
Chris: Yeah. Well, so, okay, so the, the bigger goal is definitely I'd love for this book to sell 10,000 copies, uh, over the next t- but that's over the next two years, really. So if it sells 10,000 copies over two years, not in a week, I'm happy because that means, um, you know, as long as those are going to real readers, which is the plan, right?
Chris: The, so I, I gotta back up for a second. So I know Dustin is un- you know Dustin, so I kind of, like, skip some of the stuff. But, in the industry, um, there are these stats that we've learned, from a good friend, Tim Grahl, but also some of this comes from, like, some studies that have been done on the industry to say, like, "Hey, when you're trying to sell a book that you want to have a lasting impact, the answer is not go after the New York Times bestselling list."
Chris: The New York Times bestselling list is historically... You know, there's all kinds of problems with it. It's, it's political, it's opinionated. Uh, it's not just based on sales numbers, it's based on whether they, they like your book. But also, half the books that [00:17:00] hit the New York Times bestselling list never sell as many copies again as they did during that first week.
Chris: It's a, it's a, kind of it's a vanity metric. It's the ultimate vanity metric.
Dustin: The ultimate vanity metric, yes. I wanna make sure, Ari, I'm, I wanna let you wrap on this a little bit because you're the publishing expert, and again, really important context for the strategy because that, your goals are not to be a flash in the pan, hit one list for one week just to be able to put a credibility marker behind it.
Dustin: It's sustained growth over time, which I know you're gonna get into how that actually looks for a authority-based book, which is the type of book you and I are writing.
Chris: Yeah. So in my case, uh, well, in every case, with, like, all of our members... So I , so now I'm your publisher, but in addition to, like, helping coaching you through and, yeah, 'cause now the Authority Guild's become a publisher beyond just me and with other members of our, of our mastermind all publishing together, and we're all committed to the same goals, which is really to say, "Hey, if you, if we can sell 1,000 copies..."
Chris: And my goal is to sell 1,000 copies in the first 90 days of this book. I will say that's, like, a actual goal we have for this quarter is to sell 1,000 copies of this book. If we do [00:18:00] that, that dramatically changes the business. Every time I've sold 1,000 copies of a book, those first 1,000, as long as they're going to, like, actual, um, people who are even close to my multi-target client, I mean, that's gonna create a couple hundred clients out of that.
Chris: and so that's been my experience every time. so, I'm, I'm excited about that. forgive me, that math I just said doesn't make sense. That's too high. Not a couple hundred clients. It's created hundreds of thousands of dollars in clients, but realistically, it's probably more like maybe 1 in 50 books turns into a client typically for me.
Dustin: Yeah, so maybe 20 clients from 1,000 books.
Chris: Yeah, so I always earn, I always earn on average, whenever I've gone back and done a ..., I've always earned at least $100 per book sale the way that I've run my book launches because I'm not focused on those big flash in the pan vanity metrics. I mean, I just heard from an author who someone f- another member of the Authority Guild forwarded me an email from a friend of theirs who was just looking back at their book launch and realizing, "Hey, all those campaigns I spent f- I spent, uh, or I paid for that got all these book sales, the bulk sales for my book to be sitting in a warehouse somewheres, no one's read it."
Chris: I mean, there's a lot of these campaigns where you can get people to, like, buy your books to [00:19:00] cheat the system. No, we're talking about getting the actual humans. So when I did the pre-order campaign for this book, I did a test, and I was like, "Okay, out of 100 books, let's do a pre-order campaign. Let's sell 100 pre-order copies before it was live on Amazon."
Chris: Out of those 100, 2 of those became clients in Sold Out Coach Club and paid $10,000 to join. And I was like, "Okay, good. That's 1 in 50." Even if that number go- changed a little bit, that's a really good ratio. Like, I'm excited about that. Even if it gets closer to 1 in 75, even 1 in 100, I'm happy So it's more like 20 clients out of 1,000 book sales, but still my clients pay me $10,000.
Chris: So like that's a good book launch, right? If I do that in 90 days. but the, uh, bigger goal then is if, if I can do 10,000 copies in two years, then that means the book just by word of mouth alone, it has a one in eight chance of selling, 100,000 copies in the ne- in five years. And then if, again, by word of mouth alone, if I can sell 100,000 copies in five years, I have a one in four chance of selling a million copies in 10 years, right?
Chris: So those are like, that's a long timeframe we're talking about, and so we don't have to sell a million copies, you know, next week. but like a [00:20:00] useful book that people recommend to each other, that's the kind of life that I would hope for it. Um, and so I'm gonna do my part to see the first 1,000 copies and then push to the first 10,000 copies 'cause that's really when word of mouth starts to take off like crazy, assuming it's a good book, but it is.
Chris: I spent a lot of time with it, so
Dustin: So that's good. I wanna recap those numbers because I think that is probably the ultimate context for the strategy. Uh, so 1,000 copies in 90 days, which gives us the best chance to sell 10,000 in the first two years, right? And then two- 10,000 in the first two years gives us the best chance, which is still like one in eight, uh, but it's, it's the best chance to sell 100,000 copies,kind of in, in a five years and then, you know, that's the path to a million, right?
Dustin: Um, because ultimately we can't control selling a million copies or even selling 100,000 copies. What we can mostly control is those first thousand readers, uh, with our marketing strategies over the first two years, and we're gonna focus a lot on the first year of that and even in this first 90 days. And you threw out $100 per [00:21:00] book, and so just kind of break that down, 1,000 copies.
Dustin: If you, if one in 100 people ended up enrolling in your program, that would be 10 clients. Uh, you're saying like 20 has actually been more like your average, right? So let's call it 20 clients, $200,000. Um, 1,000 copies equals $200,000 in coaching sales, which is about $200 per book, right? But that's the range we're talking about when we say 100 to $200 per book, and that's a really important distinction because the actual money you make from selling the book might be like seven bucks, right?
Dustin: But we're talking about 100 to $200 because of the positioning of the book, the purpose of the book, and who we're actually putting it in front of, which is a completely different goal set than hitting a list and just trying to have bulk numbers sitting in a warehouse to hit an artificial number that is largely, the income from that is largely driven from royalties.
Dustin: This is not a royalty play. It's a seeding play to get it into the right people's hands to be readers, evangelists, to share it and to get to [00:22:00] those bigger numbers so that 10 to, 1 to 2% of them can become your, flagship, clients and pay you handsomely for personal access and the ability to work with you to accomplish the goals in the book.
Dustin: And the book itself allows them to do it on their own should they choose that path as well, right? These, these are all true statements happening at once
Chris: Yes, and I want to emphasize that's also why the DIY useful thing is so important. Not just because it's just, it's a good practice as, like, a human being to write a book that's actually useful.
Chris: I mean, that's... I think that's, like, that's a given. But also, that's what allows you to get the word of mouth. 'Cause if somebody reads a book and they're like, "Hey, this book is pretty good, but I think you actually have to h- hire the coach to get the actual, like, meat of it," like, they're not gonna recommend it to anyone, right?
Chris: So, and so it has to be useful so that they recommend it to the next person who becomes your client. and whereas with my last books, you know, I was averaging more like a hun- over $100 a book sale. I think that's where this book is very different because it's so targeted. It's like if you have no desire to create a sold-out group coaching program, you're not gonna pick up this book, right?
Chris: or maybe you're gonna buy it, but you're not gonna read it. and so it's, [00:23:00] it's, it's much more aligned with my program versus Serve to Sell was close. Always Be Teaching, that was a leap. That was like, Always Be Teaching was like, "Hey, if you want to do stuff on the internet that, like, grows your audience and, like, you know, then you should have a sold-out group coaching program."
Chris: Like, there's like, there's a pretty big leap there that you have to make, and it still worked.
Dustin: Yep. So sort of the prescribed path, and we're, we're gonna talk about the different, ways that you can still get to the end goal even if people don't directly follow this path, but sort of the, the path we're designing for, the typical path would be podcast listener becomes a book buyer and reader.
Dustin: Uh, that reader becomes a believer in you and your method, and, and they start to believe for themselves that this is something that's possible for them, which makes them a qualified lead. And then f- as a qualified lead, then they can become a sold-out coach prospect and, and, and buyer, right? Like, that would be, if everyone checked every box along the journey, that would be the, the journey that we're really designing for here.
Dustin: But, uh, you and I have talked a lot [00:24:00] about the fact that part of the power of a well-designed book and a well-designed marketing strategy is people can shortcut that process, and people can actually become a client without even buying the book, right? And people can, become an evangelist for the book even if they don't become a client of yours.
Dustin: And so that's, to me, where this gets really exciting, and it gets more into an exponential growth. There's this linear path that we want people to follow, in most cases, and it's kind of the prescribed path, so listener to reader to believer to lead to client. But talk about, based on your own experience and, and your, desires for this book in particular, like, what are some of the other, outlier things that will very likely happen as a result of having this book, as a tool in your toolbox for marketing?
Chris: Yeah, I think the, the story that comes to mind and is where I really learned this was when I, met Ali Abdaal, um, and so which, you know, it may, if, if whether you know him or not, you know, he's a huge productivity, vlogger, and he's got a wonderful amazing business. And, and we were both speaking at the same [00:25:00] event, and so we had this moment where backstage where it was just the two of us.
Chris: And I know who he is. He has no idea who I am you know, and that's fine. Like, I'm not- my ego is not bothered by that. I mean, he now he knows who I am. But at the time, we're just chatting real quickly and I compliment on something he did recently online. I was like, "Hey, I love that video," you know. Uh, and he's like, "Oh, great."
Chris: He's like, "What do you do?" And I said, "Oh, well, I'm an author." And he's like, "No way! What's your book?" I said, "Well, my new book, Surf to Sell, just came out." So he opens his phone. Does not throw it, sorry. He opens his phone, he pulls out Amazon, looks it up, and he's like... He says, "This one?" I say, "Yeah." In front of me, buys it, puts his phone back in his pocket and said, "Okay, so you're like a sales expert, right?
Chris: can I get your advice?" So that moment I was like, there, there was part of me that was like, "But you haven't read the book yet." There was like,like the, the sort of like cr- creator in me kind of like cringed a little bit. But I was like, "No, but you haven't read the book yet." Yeah, yeah. But the book did the job.
Chris: I don't think he ever read the book, right? Like clearly he bought it, but I don't think he ever read it. Um, what he did was he started asking me a couple questions and then he said, "Do you have 10 minutes?" And he [00:26:00] jumped on a Zoom call with his team that was literally, like, in a different time zone across the, across the ocean, and we, like, redesigned their entire group coaching sales strategy, in, in that room on that call right after we met, right?
Chris: And so this is somebody who's already running a multimillion-dollar business who recognized that I had an authority on something that he needed help with because of the book title. Literally just because the book title. That was it. So up until then, I thought you had to... It's a neat funnel. It's a neat, tidy funnel, and you sell the book.
Chris: People read the book. They get to the end of the book. At the end of the book, they fill out the lead magnet, and then you meet with them, and then they become a client. It does sometimes happen that way, but very rarely. I think what more often what happens is the book becomes a good conversation starter.
Chris: So I've had this happen on podcasts where somebody's inviting me to come on and talk about the book. We're talking about the book. The book is just really an excuse for us to have the conversation, and then sometimes people reach out, and become a client, never having bought the book. So I do expect that and want that with this, you know, with my podcast approach with this book.
Chris: That's also why I want to talk through call to action with you. W- well, I mean, I'm sure we're gonna talk about a [00:27:00] lot of stuff about podcasting, but with my other books, when I did a book tour, it was always just like, "Hey, go to buy the book. Either go to the book website or go and..." And every author does this.
Chris: They say, "Go buy your book. Go buy the book wherever books are sold, or pull out Amazon." But I've always wondered, I'm like, okay, if you're listening to a podcast and let's just say you're going for a walk or you're exercising or working out, like what are the odds you're gonna stop whatever you're doing and pull out your phone, go to Amazon, buy a book, and then actually read it a week or two later?
Chris: I think that's, I think, I think those would be small. I mean, I'm just making a guess here, but I think those odds are pretty, pretty low. so I was on 50 podcasts for my first book, Survive and Thrive, and I was a little disappointed by how little those podcasts seemed to move book sales. But I think part of the problem was actually that I was trying to use the podcast to move book sales.
Chris: and so I'm, I'm happy to sell this book. I wanna sell this book, but I actually have a hunch there's a better use of the podcast conversations that come out of the book. What do you think, Justin?
Dustin: Uh, yeah. That's, uh, that, that's why we're here. So, and as a footnote, that was, Survive and Thrive was before John and I have worked together in, uh, in the, in the work that I do.
Dustin: And [00:28:00] so, so I wanna highlight a couple things here, and then, and then we're gonna... I, I promise we're getting right into the strategy next and talk about this call to action. That's the next thing I wanna talk about, when you're on podcasts. But to kinda close the loop on all the jobs to be done for this book and all the ways that it will benefit your business, on podcasts and, outside of that.
Dustin: So there's the traditional funnel path, book to lead to sale. There's the Ali Abdaal experience, which is simply being the author of this book provides the authority that some people will just say, "Oh, you must be an expert. Uh, I need to hire you." And they don't even need to consume the book to do that.
Dustin: Three, which you started to allude to there, uh, is it opens up stages Because it exists, right? when you and I were at Craft and Commerce, you had the closing or the opening keynote at Craft and Commerce. I think a big part of the timing of that and why that worked so well is you had just released Serve to Sell.
Dustin: In fact, you launched it at Craft and Commerce. No one in that audience had read that book, 'cause it didn't exist until you were on the stage or hadn't been released yet. And so that's a great example of just [00:29:00] having the book with a clear promise and a clear ideal audience created a stage opportunity, which is, one of the reasons why podcast guesting is gonna be so available to you as you're releasing Sold Out Coach because the book is, in many cases, an excuse to interview you and to be able to unpack your expertise in that.
Dustin: And it's something I think we'll talk about, at the tail end of the interview, is partnerships, right? The idea that there's the listeners of a podcast and, and we obviously want as many of them to become readers or direct clients or invite you onto their stages as possible. But there's so much opportunity there for partnerships where it's a ripple effect or a, a flywheel effect, where as you have more exposure to the book and you're out there talking about it, other centers of influence say, "I wanna highlight John on my platform," or, "I wanna bring his expertise onto my podcast, YouTube channel, physical stage, virtual summit," you know, you name it, newsletter.
Dustin: And so there's these really cool compounding effects that we need to seed with our podcast guesting [00:30:00] strategy, right? So does that, does that kind of capture a lot of the, the value that the book creates outside of direct listeners buying it and becoming the traditional funnel route?
Chris: Yes. The book is an asset that amplifies a lot of things, right?
Chris: You know, in terms of, like you said, opens those doors, make... I saw that with Serve to Sell. I mean, the same with all my books, but Serve to Sell was the one that, like I mentioned earlier, getting to speak to the StoryBrand community. But also there's, uh, a handful of different, like, group coaching programs, including yours, that started actually putting Serve to Sell in the welcome box.
Dustin: Yeah. we buy copies and, and give it to all of our new clients, yeah.
Chris: Yeah. Which I'm so honored. Thank you for doing that. But you're not the only one. There's actually a few different communities that do this, and I think that's... I mean, I can't think of a better embedded partnership, right? Like, the...
Chris: I could- Dustin, I couldn't, I couldn't go to you and I couldn't say, "Hey, would you put my business card in the welcome box for all of your new clients, so all of your clients who are paying you $10,000 get my business card?" There's no way. There's no way you could do that. But if I'm like, "Hey, you wanna put my book?"
Chris: It wasn't even your idea. I think it was your idea, right? You're like and so it's like, you're like, "Hey, can I put your business card in my box?" And I'm like, "Yes, you may." [00:31:00] Um, and so, uh, there's lots of reasons why a book becomes really useful.
Dustin: Yes. So okay. So we've, I think, pretty, uh, discreetly defined what success for the book from a marketing standpoint looks like.
Dustin: And so let's start to work back from there. All right? So we're gonna work back. So- Getting the ultimate result, which is group coaching clients, is sort of the North Star that we're working from. And so the step that immediately precedes that, and we're from here forth, we're just gonna talk about podcast guesting.
Dustin: So, uh, when you're on a podcast, the step that precedes anyone being able to do that ultimate goal, which is hire you and become a, a client, is the call to action at the end of each interview, right? And we're gonna work back into what should the interview be about, and then who should you be interviewed by, and what are the numbers that are gonna make this a success for you?
Dustin: But le- yeah, let's dive into this call to action. This is something you and I have talked about. We actually did a, a, a session together for my mastermind recently about this, this really key moment in a customer [00:32:00] journey. so as you're sitting here just pre-release of this book, uh, what are you thinking would be an effective call to action at the end of an interview as...
Dustin: After you've talked about the problem you solve and what the book is about and how you're an authority, that critical moment where you're inviting people to take the next step at the end of the interview, what do you think? And then we can, we can certainly talk, a- about some different options and strategies here.
Dustin: But what do you think would be a really good call to action based on maybe your experience from previous books and things that you've learned in your own journey working with other authors?
Chris: I think it's the Sold Out Quiz. And this is something that's come out of conversations in your mastermind, your community.
Chris: I was wrestling this, through this, going... I will say, with Serve to Sell, almost every podcast I was on, what I did was I gave away a free copy of the book, like an e-book, and that did work pretty well. you know, I had, hundreds, I think, maybe last I checked it was, like, maybe 5 or 600 leads who did that and, like, downloaded that.
Chris: Many of those became clients. plenty of other people, though, listened to the podcast, even told me in email, "Wow, that was so helpful and [00:33:00] so useful." And I was looking back and I was like, "Oh, they didn't actually download the e-book," right? And, like, this was coming up over and over again. And then I thought about it and I was like, okay, I think the free e-book thing m- was a cool idea, but I also think there's a lot of reasons why it didn't work, right?
Chris: If you're not an e-book reader, I mean, I just met with a guy last week, he told me, he zoomed out his camera and showed me these hundreds of books on his shelf, and he's like, "I don't do e-books." so it's like, it's like, if you're not an e-book reader, you're not gonna download the free e-book. If you're not in a good place-
Dustin: As a sidebar there, I am an e-book reader, but unless it's already, like, synced into my Kindle, I'm not gonna take the time to figure out how to do a MOBI file and get, you know, all this stuff.
Dustin: So it's gotta be seamless. And, um, so I think that's, similar to just a paperback or hardback reader. You're missing a big part of the market and how they wanna consume a book, even if they did wanna consume the book. But I know you're getting into maybe why consuming a whole book is not the right call to action anyway.
Chris: Well, exactly. There's so many, like you just said, like, I'm the same way. I've had people give me a free copy and I'm like, "I'll just buy it on Kindle," because I'm like, I don't wanna... And actually, I know it's really easy to move PDFs to your Kindle, but, like, it's an extra step and that's just a [00:34:00] button, you know?
Chris: Like, but yeah, there's lots of reasons why it wasn't working. One of them is, it's a huge commitment. It's like, "Hey, if you liked this 20-minute preview, go dedicate hours of your life to more of my content." And it's like, that's actually a really big ask. and so now what I've done, and I just tested this on a, I was on the I Love Coaching podcast, which was great.
Chris: They were doing a challenge on, like, how to launch a one-on-one coaching business, and then it worked out perfectly where I was like, "Hey, you know what'd be great, is to have, like, a bonus episode on how to do group coaching." And they were like, "We'd love that." And so I came on. We, it was the first, it was the first show where I got to talk about the book.
Chris: Um, and then they were like, "Okay, everybody, obviously we should get the book. But if you just got a preview of this and now you're interested in, how do you know? What's the next step if you wanna do group coaching?" And so I got to test the call to action and say, like, "Well, the next step is if you're thinking, if you're wondering..."
Chris: 'Cause I had to get in their head space. I'm like, okay, at the end of a podcast, episode like that, you might just be wondering, y- "Should I do group coaching? Is group coaching right for me?" Like, I'm not gonna assume you're already convinced. And so I just said, "Hey, if you're wondering if Sold Out Coat, if group coaching makes sense for you, having a Sold Out Group coaching program, uh, and if you're wondering if you have what it takes to [00:35:00] really become a Sold Out coach and to earn $10,000 or more per month group coaching 20 minutes per week, I created a five-question quiz.
Chris: Just go to soldoutquiz.com, answer these five questions. You'll immediately get a green, yellow, or red score on are you ready or not, and if not, what needs to happen for you to get ready?" And I share that and instantly you could just like feel it. Like the, the hosts were like, "That's so useful and helpful."
Chris: You know, people started taking the quiz as soon as the podcast came out. and that quiz is a much more direct call to action. Like, if you are ready, where it's like, "Amazing. Also, we should probably help you," you know? It's a really great natural connection to my offer. So I think that's, I think that's the call to action I should use every time is this little quiz.
Chris: What do you think?
Dustin: I 100% agree, and I think there's a couple kind of key principles at play here. a lot of times when we're talking about podcast guesting strategy, it's not around a book, right? And so, there are principles that exist in this moment that apply, whether we're talking about a book, a coaching program, or anything else.
Dustin: And a, a couple key ones. One- the one you hit on really strongly there is consumption, [00:36:00] right? This call to action or what we would call a lead magnet is a bridge from interest, like attention, trust. Like, they do trust you to some extent. They've heard you on an interview. You've piqued their interest.
Dustin: you've given them some real curiosity and, and they are asking this question, "I wonder if this would work for me?" But if the only thing they can do to answer that question is go read a whole book in the for- and find it and put it in the format that they prefer, you're gonna miss and, and lose most people in that, in that journey because the consumption tax is so high.
Dustin: It's so hard to get that value and, you know, most people, as you know, John, I don't know the stat, maybe you do, even if they buy the book, most people don't read it, right? And so, uh, we have all of these like obstacles in the way of, "Man, I'm really interested. I like John. I, I heard him teach these principles.
Dustin: Man, group coaching sounds really interesting to me." And then we lose all that momentum by saying, "The only w- next step you can take is to go buy the book." 'Cause the reality is the book buyers in that audience are gonna go buy the book anyway, right? We don't need to tell [00:37:00] people and waste this opportunity to say, "Oh, guess what?
Dustin: My book's on Amazon." Well, no crap. Every book's on Amazon, right? Like, if I want the book, I'll go find the book. But like we need to capture the 80% of people who are not there yet. And so you don't wanna make it unconsumable. You wanna create, immediate value that starts to not only grow the belief in you, which they've, got a heavy dose of by hearing a whole interview, but believe, belief in themself.
Dustin: That, I think that's the big X factor here that we don't think about enough with our call to action is what bite-sized piece of value or prescription can I give this listener so they start to believe for themselves that this is the right path? Um, and so there can be different forms of this for sure. I mean, it could be a worksheet, a checklist.
Dustin: it could be sort of pulling out the really hooky chapter. I wouldn't call it like a free chapter from my book, but you could pull out a section of the book to give them that micro dose of belief and progress and like a, a mini transformation. But form and function-wise, [00:38:00] I think the best thing is exactly what you're planning, which is a quiz, a lightweight quiz, not like this big deep dive 20-minute assessment, but like five simple questions so that if you're curious about this and you are starting to want to pursue this deeper, find out if it might work for you, and make it personal to them and make it feel like diagnostic to their own situation.
Dustin: And it takes less than five minutes. It's very memorable. They can do it from their phone while they're walking the dog or working out or whatever they're doing in that moment. And, uh, so I think from the serving the listener and bridging them over into a deeper experience, th- that those are some of the big factors for why that's a really key call to action.
Dustin: And I think from your perspective, John, the reason the quiz works so well is you get to capture interest from people that haven't yet committed to buying the whole book, right? Uh, because if you say, "Go get the book on Amazon," well, for one, if they buy it on Amazon, you never know it anyway. But even if they bought it from your website and you're able to capture that, we're getting [00:39:00] maybe 5% of people, to do that.
Dustin: In this case, you're getting a much larger percentage who are Curious, they wanna take the next step. They're not fully committed to reading a whole book and committing to this. and then you can follow up with them to encourage them to actually get the book and take the next steps in our funnel, right?
Dustin: So I know I, I shared a lot there, sort of like zooming out into what's a call to action for, and how does it serve both the person taking the action, but also you as the business owner who's prescribing the action. So anything in there you wanna react to before we, we kinda move on from this point?
Chris: Well, yeah, I mean, I think I love it.
Chris: I love the way you kind of broke that down of why it works. And, and it makes sense in obv- it's obvious in hindsight, even though it's, you know, the last three books did not have a call to action this clear. but, uh, yeah, so I'm excited about it. And honestly, I think even if somebody's listening to this and they say, "Well, yeah, but my goal is to sell books," I actually still think this is a smarter path, is to go straight into a lead magnet first like this, like the Sold Out Quiz, is because what I'm doing right now is when somebody takes the quiz, if they're almost ready, like they're not ready yet, they get a yellow light.
Chris: They get this kind of AI-generated advice that [00:40:00] tells them, "Hey, here's what you need to do next to get sold out." Most of it, it does change based on your scores, but the fifth thing on the list is always go read Sold Out Coach with a link to then go buy the book. So now I've got their email address, right?
Chris: And now I'm sending them to go buy the book. They're far more likely to now buy the book once they're, like, sitting in front of their computer or on their phone filling out the quiz and getting the results. And also I already have their email address before they even read the book. So there's so many reasons why it's a superior lead magnet to all the other alternatives that I've tried in the past.
Chris: But, so so, um, yeah, so I'm excited about that. okay, cool. So I've got my lead magnet. Now what do, what do I take it, Dustin? What do I do next?
Dustin: Yeah. So for if you didn't see the video, the results page from John's quiz is the results of the quiz, and then right on the same page is the one-click button to go buy the book.
Dustin: So we're not losing the ability for people to buy the book. We're just providing a bridge for all the people who aren't quite ready to take the full step to the book. Uh, and then I'm sure, from that page, there are people that are like, "Actually, I don't care about the book. I'm just gonna book a call, with the team and learn about this program 'cause [00:41:00] I'm not really a book person, but I really do wanna do group coaching."
Dustin: So we're capturing as much possible, interest and goodwill from an interview with this approach to the call to action. So okay. So that's the call to action, uh, which is, I would say, the second most important thing after establishing the actual goals for the book and the jobs to be done for the book, which we spent a lot of time on.
Dustin: So we kind of move back from there into a podcast interview itself. Uh, we need to think about what people need to believe from the interview in order to take that call to action we just talked about, right? And so when you think about specific to Sold Out Coach, John, maybe three to five key problems or key,topics that you wanna be known for What are they, right?
Dustin: Like what, what do people need to believe after they hear you in an interview in order to wanna go take that quiz and ultimately buy the book and buy coaching? Because this is now, once we establish this, that's gonna start telling us who should we be talking to and how do we get access to those audiences.
Dustin: But I like to really think about the [00:42:00] stories and the teaching that you wanna do in the interview, so that we can frame now from this, like moving back to the very beginning, in, in reverse order if that's not obvious to people how we're doing this. So who... What are the three to five problems or topics that you wanna be known for specific to this book?
Chris: Yeah, I think it probably depends on who I'm talking to. People like, like friends and peers assume, they're like, "Oh, you just help one-on-one coaches, and so you help one-on-one coaches through the group." And I'm like, "Well, that's kind of low-hanging fruit, right?" Like sure. yes. So I do have like a section at the very beginning of the book that explains why group coaching is better than one-on-one coaching, and it's not just because it's more efficient.
Chris: Like there's a lot of reasons why it's actually better for the customer too. So I do think that's one, like group coaching is actually better than one-on-one coaching. I think that's a belief that I'd love to share with some audiences. But I... But again, I feel like that's low-hanging fruit. I actually think one of my other beliefs that I'd love to teach is that, that, group coaching is your highest ROI opportunity from your email list.
Chris: I mean, Justin, you're, you're living proof of this, right? I mean you built a business doing over a billion dollars a year in [00:43:00] revenue with a tiny little email list, you know? And it's like... And uh, the people with the huge email list, by the way, I coach the people with huge email lists that don't have huge revenue, and they would much rather have your situation, Justin.
Chris: So, so, that's... Like I think that's something where it's like, hey, basically anybody who's trying to build an audience and make money from it should know this is the highest ROI opportunity, right? Like e- like value per e- subscriber or per client. So I think that's an opportunity. I think also there's this other opportunity I haven't really fully tapped into, but I shared this when I talked about my core mission of like turning of stewarding wisdom, is that I do think there's a lot of people who have decades of experience in their field who are thinking about legacy.
Chris: And sometimes they start these sort of like vanity personal brands where they're like, "Oh, it doesn't have to make money. I just need to like share my message with, my advice with the world." and I mean, honestly I'd love for them to know that free advice doesn't leave lasting impact. which is just...
Chris: It just, it just doesn't, right? Like you, And so I'd love for them to know that you need to charge a premium if you want people to pay [00:44:00] attention. That's a few things that come to mind. I'm sure there's more, but, uh, what do you think about those?
Dustin: I love those, and, probably obvious to you, John, as we're going through this and, and you know the kind of the, the worldview I'm bringing to it.
Dustin: But to the listener, as John was expressing these major beliefs that need to be built for different audiences, they immediately start translating into buckets of audience, right? So there is a core message of one-on-one coaching, it has limitations and that group coaching's better. So there's like this whole pool of podcasts that focus on people who already do coaching, but you're there to build the belief that actually group coaching is the way to actually scale, grow your impact, have more leverage in the world.
Dustin: Like, that's a bucket of listeners now. And then that second problem, which I really like, is how do you maximize the ROI from your email list, right? So you can start to think of all these creators and all these people who know to build email lists. They're great newsletter creators, they're great, um, maybe YouTubers or social media experts, and they've [00:45:00] built big email lists, but they actually have very poor monetization strategies, right?
Dustin: So you coming on around the topic of Sold-Out Coach to talk about why sold-out coaching programs are the best way to maximize the growth and leverage of your email list, that's there's a whole pool of podcasts now who would love to hear that specific message. And then this third one, which I know is less fully baked, but I think really relevant, there are podcasts who cater to these more seasoned senior sort of second career, you know, the fourth quarter of life, sort of folk who have so much wisdom to share, and they have this false premise that they need to give it all away for free to leave a legacy.
Dustin: And you have this very strong stance to say, "No, that's actually a disservice. What you need to do is charge a premium for your wisdom and knowledge so that you can have a real impact in the world." and so that, that's another now bucket of podcast opportunity where that's the core message. Now, in any of these interviews, you're still gonna talk about the framework from the book.
Dustin: You're still gonna probably talk about the steps. You're gonna talk about your own [00:46:00] story and why Sold-Out Coaching has been transformative to you and your clients. But the hook and the thing that you're gonna go to that host and say, "This is what I know about your audience, and this is why they need my message, in this, inside this book," it makes it so much more a pl- coming from a place of service where...
Dustin: 'Cause I think an important thing to say out loud here is- Yes, the book opens doors. I am personally not a fan of your podcast pitches saying, "I'm John, I wrote a book. You should interview me about the book." It should instead be, "I'm John. I see your audience has this problem. I am uniquely qualified to come on and help them solve this problem.
Dustin: And by the way, I have authority on this 'cause I just wrote the book on it." You know what I mean? And the book is important, but it's not like the thing we lead with, because what we wanna do is lead with the problem of the audience and how we're gonna solve it in an interview, and then that solves all these downstream things that we've been talking about.
Dustin: So how does that feel to you in, in terms of what we would call plan in our step, which is identifying the [00:47:00] pools or, or ponds of podcast opportunities that we wanna focus on in our strategy?
Chris: I mean, it sounds really exciting honestly, 'cause I'm like, that's kind of the pond- the pools or ponds are multiplying in my head already as you're talking.
Chris: I'm like, "Yeah, wait, wow, there's a lot of audiences I haven't even thought about." 'Cause the, specifically that last one I mentioned, which is the least developed,you know, a lot of times I, uh, coach people who think that building an online business, like, they have to be like a 17-year-old TikTok influencer and, like, post on, like, Reels three times a day.
Chris: And it's like, no. Like, if you're a 17-year-old and you've got all the time in the world, sure, do that. But for someone who doesn't, like, it's like if you've got the ti- if the things competing for your attention are like... I mean, I literally met with two people last month who each earn over a million dollars a year from their wealth ma- like, brokerage firms that they've run, for over a decade, both of them.
Chris: It was like they don't even know each other. It was just like... I was like, "Whoa." I was like, so that, like, the... For them, again, it's actually not about the $10,000, it's about the impact. But it's also the fact that they're like, "I wanna build an online business, so I guess I need to post on LinkedIn three times a day."
Chris: And I'm like, "No." They're like, like, it's like, "You [00:48:00] don't. That is the wrong focus for someone in that position with all that wisdom." yeah, this is good. And actually I was on, not even with this strategy, it was not even really about the book, but I was on the Online Course Show podcast recently, and I've gotten several clients from that, and I think part of that was because it's a podcast that's very specifically about how to sell online courses.
Chris: And then he brought me on to say like, "Hey, maybe you shouldn't sell online courses. Maybe you should sell, like, a coaching program." And people reached out and they were like, "That was exactly what I needed to hear. It seems like online courses are dying. What do I do?" You know? so I feel like, like, that's maybe under the same opportunity of, like, highest ROI per email subscriber, but it's also in the realm of just, like, if you wanna build your online business, this is the way.
Dustin: Yeah. It's a different model for creators, right? and that's very ti- a different monetization model for creators, which is very timely 'cause obviously the landscape shifted with AI and all the things. And so whether that's online course creators or email lists, or people who have big social media followings who don't know how to monetize that, all of those are kind of in that second bucket where the podcast primarily talks about those things, like how to build an on- online course, or how to grow your [00:49:00] email list, or how to build a big YouTube channel.
Dustin: And you come on as a shoulder topic that's really complimentary to that to say, "Hey, here's an idea for the same audience, that you don't really cover much. I'm gonna fill this content gap for your audience around, using group coaching as the model for leveraging the attention that they already have Yeah.
Dustin: So awesome. So that, you know, again, we're, we're not gonna get into writing the pitch and all that, but I, I... Hopefully what you hear, John, and what the listeners hear is once you begin with the end in mind, and then think about that call to action and what people-- you want people to do at the end of the interview, then it's much easier to think about what beliefs need built to make people wanna do that.
Dustin: And when you think about the different main beliefs that need to be built, they line up, of course, with the content of your book already. That quickly identifies the pools of attention that you wanna, deliver that message into, right? Because those are the people sitting there basically waiting for that message.
Dustin: And so taking it [00:50:00] back to the beginning, when you go to look for those opportunities and then reach out to those hosts, again, you're not coming with hat in hand saying, "I'm launching a book. I could really... I n- you're number 49 out of 50. I, I really, I really need this box to be checked," like maybe a, a traditional book publisher launch might view it.
Dustin: It's like, "No, I'm, like, here to serve your audience. I have a really unique perspective, and I have this, this book I just wrote on this that, you know, I can pull some really, key wisdom for your audience. And, you know, I'm also gonna give them free value at the end in, in the form of this call to action so they can go feel like this was a really good use of their time, and it's gonna reflect really well on you as the host."
Dustin: And as John well knows, 'cause I say it so much in our community, the whole idea here is creating a win-win-win partnership with this host, right? So it's a win for John because he's getting in front of his ideal clients and readers and people to opt into his, uh, call to action and buy his book. But it's a win for the host because it's a win for their audience, right?
Dustin: And so we look at [00:51:00] that audience first and we say, "Man, what-- how could I really serve this audience uniquely, and what, what perspective can I bring?" That's why we get such high acceptance rates on the podcasts that we target because we're very intentional about why we want to target them, who we want to access, and the unique value that we're gonna provide them.
Dustin: So that is sort of the s- that, that's the strategy in the sense of what is podcast guesting doing, uh, in this. And so I think as we close out here, John, it might be helpful to just put some numbers, like how many podcasts, when, sort of like what would be the mix of types of, opportunities that these podcasts represent, right?
Dustin: So, uh, what I would say is taking this view that, that we opened with about we're not trying to just do 100 podcasts in one week to try to hit this big blip on a graph. We really wanna, energize the launch. The, the launch is important. We wanna have some initial momentum, right? So that we can get some seed readers and get reviews rolling and all the things that that does.
Dustin: But we really wanna [00:52:00] take a longer view, I would say two years, but for the purposes of some simple numbers, let's just talk about y- one year. So we say, "I wrote this book, it's gonna launch on X date. I got this window to work with a lot of intention. so in the first year when I release this book, what would be some very reasonable and effective, volume," I guess you could say, right?
Dustin: and what I would say to that is 50, right? I'm just gonna put out a number. Now, of course, anyone could triple that or yeah, 50, 50 in the first year. And so the reason I like to use 50 is it's one a week. It's very approachable. So yeah, you get two weeks off a year, John. I'm gonna give you Christmas with your family.
Dustin: Yeah. Well, and that actually gets to my next point. You know, in a non-launch version of this, like what we do with our clients, we're typically saying like literally like one a week. So like when people go through our accelerator program, like our intent is like, let's get you on one podcast a week because that unlocks sort of this, this [00:53:00] math towards a six-figure, uh, return on your time.
Dustin: But when it is a launch base, in this case book launch, we do wanna be mindful about the concentration of those 50, right? But not to the extent that we're doing 50 at the, the week of the book launches and nothing else, 'cause that, that's I think a mistake that people make. So the way I like to think about this is roughly, you know, these are all, all, you know, general, general numbers, but I'd say like 10 in sort of the pre-launch time, which you're in now 10 the week of the launch.
Dustin: You know, we do wanna give some concentrated effort in the first month of this book being out in the wild. So 10 before, 10 during the launch, effectively those couple weeks when you're really getting out and talking about it a lot. And then I would say, like, 30 post-launch, right? Um, which is not as intense as it is during the launch period, but we're also not putting all of our effort and eggs into one concentrated window.
Dustin: So how does that... Does that feel [00:54:00] enough, too much, sort of, like, reasonable as far as just, like, a, a concentration of effort?
Chris: Yeah. I kind of, like, penciled in a goal of, like, I was like, hmm, 25 stages this quarter. You know, like, uh, the book's coming out, like, you know, July 21st and so then I was thinking, um, okay, July 21st,
Chris: you know, that's, like, not... It- it's, like, into the quarter, but it's not, like, far enough into the quarter that we've still got some time to do some stuff. Um, so that's kind of what I was thinking, and it sounds like that's pretty close to what you're recommending because if we go... If we combine the after launch and the pre-launch, so even if I did 20, that'd be good.
Chris: yeah. That, that's encouraging. I think it's doable. It's gonna take focus because I'm not as consistent normally on pod- podcasts. Unfortunately, I'm, like, a fair weather podcaster. Like, I go into camp- seasons where I'm, like, pitching a few podcasts, and seasons where, like, right now, I just got invited to the Smart Passive Income podcast and I owe them an email to get on it, and that's a huge podcast.
Chris: And I'm like, I... They're, like, waiting on me to get back to them. Whoops. so you know, like, yeah, I need to go do that.
Dustin: Well, I think that speaks also [00:55:00] to what will be true for many of our listeners, is definitely true for you and for I, is we have relationships and a lot of times we have these sort of dormant relationships that we just need to stir up a little bit, uh, because we have a, uh, we have a, a reason to do so, right?
Dustin: So again, that's different than saying, "I'm only gonna do podcasts for one week. I'm gonna do 100 of them in one week because that's my launch week." But, you know, in service of the goals you have for this book, I think thinking in a healthy way, like, okay, 50, if I could do, like, 10 to 20 pre-launch, launch kind of in that, that opening quarter, and then I'm able to spread that effort out beyond that.
Dustin: It's not like most people have to start from scratch and say, "I don't know anyone. I gotta find 50." Most of you- us, especially if you're at the point where you're writing an authority-based book, you have clients, you have relationships, you have peers, you're in other communities and groups, and this gives you as, as, as much as them, it gives you the reason to make this a concentrated effort, put a plan behind it and execute, right?
Dustin: it's [00:56:00] fine that maybe you go a year without doing any of these proactively, but now you are gonna do it proactively because there's, a, a goal line that you're working against. so I think if we say 50 and it's sort of spread out over the year in that way. The other thing I'd like to talk about a little bit, uh, again, inexact science here- The sort of the composition of those 50, I think that's important too.
Dustin: I think a lot of people would, would think, well, any 50 will do. no. Like we wanna think about for-- this is sort of a matrix, right? We wanna think about topically, maybe you wanna do 10 on legacy, 20 on cr- on increasing ROI from existing creators, and tw- by whatever the balance is, 20 on, uh, group coaching instead of one-on-one.
Dustin: That starts to give you some more tangible sort of targets within the 50. But then kind of vertically, we wanna think about Not all podcast appearances are put on your plan sheet because of the audience directly, right? And so I guess to elaborate on [00:57:00] that, most of them will be, oh, they have an audience that needs to hear my message, but some will be very strategically selected, oh, it's actually like that host will be a great partner for me.
Dustin: They have a community that I would love to have deeper access to. So yeah, their audience is good, but the main reason I actually wanna solidify a podcast appearance is to get to know the host better, build rapport and authority with them, because I want to be on their conference stage this fall, right?
Dustin: So there's that. Um, so kind of the list I have is, is like aligned audiences is probably, you know, gonna be the majority of this, but aligned strategic partners I would say would be a strong number two, uh, when you're thinking about podcasts within each of your pools or ponds. some of these would be pure authority building shows.
Dustin: I would love to be able, in version two of this book, to put, "That was featured on X podcast," even if, like, maybe the audience isn't the most aligned from a book-buying standpoint. There's certain shows it's just like, it would mean a lot to me from a credibility and authority building standpoint to be on this show, and while I'm in this window of opportunity, this would [00:58:00] be a great time to execute on that.
Dustin: And then the, the last one I would say would be the, the what I call the unicorns, right? Like, if there was ever a time for me to get on Smart Passive Income, right? It would be now while I have this very... I have this momentum built, I have this very real reason to reach out at this time, not only for them to receive it, but for you to give that, that invitation, right?
Dustin: And so you think about listening audiences, strategic partners in the form of hosts and other guests that have been on these shows, some that are just purely for credibility building reasons. And then, you know, you're probably gonna have one to five out of 50 that are sort of the, the Grand Slams, the unicorns.
Dustin: It's like, eh, I probably wouldn't usually try to get on Amy Porterfield or Pat Flynn or Lewis Howes or whatever that is, but, like, now's the time to take my shot because I am in this period of focused concentration on getting this book out, and many of those larger shows actually are much more receptive when you do have a book, and some of them do actually like to support, you know, [00:59:00] book launches, and they like to feature a lot of new authors, uh, during that time.
Dustin: So that's how I think about the 50 and trying to break that down into different buckets so that it feels much more manageable, so that you're like, "Well, here's... these five are ROI podcast because of the listening audience. These five are just, uh, partnerships and community leaders and conference organizers and things that I really want to be in front of."
Dustin: And it makes that 50 a lot less, vague, right? It gives you a lot more direction about how you're going to actually, break down the strategy and to make it much more approachable for you.
Chris: That's great. Thank you, Dustin. I'm like inspired to do this. I think, I've been so focused on, uh, writing and editing the book.
Chris: I mean, like I've known this since I wrote the other book, but it's like, I always think that like I'm at the finish line. It's like, oh no, I'm at the starting line. I remember now, you know? Um, but it's good. This is a good starting line 'cause I was just thinking about how as you're sharing this, I'm like, okay, the book just becomes really my primary marketing angle for my whole business for the next year.
Chris: I mean, it's like,there's no reason for [01:00:00] it not to be because if all roads start at the book it, but lead to the quiz, lead to the pr- Like that's a really good business model. And, um Yeah, so I'm excited about that 'cause I think we, we don't really have time to unpack it here, but I also think, like, there's another unt- up- untapped opportunity probably worth circling back to at some point, which is the fact that now that I have a mastermind group where I'm also a publisher, right?
Chris: Then the book itself is sort of, it's already brought in one new Authority Guild member where they were like, "What do you do with your book launch?" And it led to me, like, sharing more behind-the-scenes stuff and them joining the mastermind and becoming a publishing client. And I was like, "Oh, wait a minute.
Chris: I assumed that the Authority Guild was just for alumni of Sold Out Coach Club, but actually there's this other way for people to join now that I haven't really, uh, explored yet." So I, I... Right now the focus is sell the book, and that's gonna lead to Sold Out Coach Club. So the Sold Out Coach book will lead to Sold Out Coach Club via the Sold Out quiz.
Chris: But I think that there's probably a bigger picture, and maybe this is just like a, like a second lap of coming back around and going like, "Hey, look how I use this book to build this massive business [01:01:00] success," right? And then it's like it becomes the case study that helps also grow the publishing company, too.
Dustin: 1000%, yeah. And what I was gonna close with, uh, for you and for the listeners is, plans are plans. We do wanna have a plan, and we wanna, in, in this instance, what are the first 10, the next 10 around the launch? What are those 30? What are these, um, key topics which identify the pool? So we can have a pretty dialed-in plan with specific podcasts that we wanna reach, and you don't have to do it all on day one.
Dustin: And, uh, there is a natural momentum that gets built because of the core strategy behind this, which is we are looking to have a sustainable, multifaceted strategy behind marketing our book with podcast guesting. We're not putting all of the effort into one week where you either feel like this really worked or it's a complete failure and it was a waste of time, right?
Dustin: Becau- And one of the reasons that you just kind of started to allude to it is as you do this, what happens is you build, you get [01:02:00] micro-wins for yourself, and you build momentum, right? It's like, "Oh, that second podcast I was on, I got a client. It was worth $10,000." Well, guess what? You're gonna be much more excited about pitching the next one, right?
Dustin: Uh, or, "Wow, I hadn't really thought about, but as I got into this in the eighth podcast, I realized that this is actually a great way, this is gonna become a great case study for my mastermind." And that gives you a lot more intrinsic motivation. So you don't have to do it all at once, but it is good to begin with the end in mind and then have a, a, a s- a simple but attainable plan, and just realize that as you embark on the plan and you start putting in some of the early reps- That will, those early wins will beget the next win, then the next wins, and all of a sudden you're gonna wake up a year from now, look back and be like, "Wow, I actually did 50 podcasts and I would've never guessed, but this happened and this happened, and look at all these cool things."
Dustin: Um, none of that can happen without starting, and none of that can happen without a good strategy behind it. But what I hope people hear is we're talking about a whole year of effort in, you know, one one-hour podcast here, and the reality is you're going to be able to meter out [01:03:00] your energy and adjust this plan as you go because you're gonna get real-time feedback, in the process of doing it.
Dustin: And I hope that's a big encouragement to you, John, and to anyone else listening thinking about how they're gonna launch a, a book using podcasts.
Chris: That's so useful. Thank you, Dustin. I appreciate you sharing that. you know, I think this is the part where I say, "If you found this useful, then go buy the book where the book's are sold," right?
Dustin: Well, I was gonna say two things real quick. Okay. So one, any just, like, immediate things that jump out at you as sort of your useful takeaways from our conversation, and then absolutely I wanna transition into letting you, uh, practice your CTA here,for our listeners.
Chris: Yes. Thank you. I mean, there's so much.
Chris: I'm, I'm s- Let me, let me think real quick. Let me distill it down to my most useful takeaway. Um, I think my most useful takeaway is, uh, honestly, like, talking through the pools of people that it's useful for, like, and how... Okay, no, here's what it is. It's the idea that there's a different version of the pitch for the book to different audiences.
Chris: That seems obvious in hindsight, but in my head I was already drafting, like, the one pitch, and then I was just gonna, like, shop that around, like who wants it. And m- talking it the way, through the way you [01:04:00] did, it was like, it's like what are these different scenarios? What are the things you want, the messages you wanna get across?
Chris: And then realizing, oh, actually probably it's a different one-pager for different audiences. Like, maybe it's not all customized, so maybe there's three to five different versions of that. And so I need to think hard about that. I, I obviously need to think hard about that. I need to create that. So that's my biggest takeaway, for sure.
Chris: Um, there's a lot useful, but that was definitely my biggest takeaway.
Dustin: Good. And one thing I'll add onto that real quick is because you're so specific in the serve that you're gonna give to each of these audiences, what will naturally happen is you might have to write one to three pitches to kinda get that ball rolling into that, that focus area.
Dustin: But then at the end of that first interview when you say, "Oh, uh, you're a online course creator, topic, who else do you know, uh, in your mastermind sphere of influence, previous guests, who would really value, who would really, uh, get a lot of value, to have me on their podcast to talk about this for their creator audience?"
Dustin: And you're gonna immediately get three to five referrals for other podcasts. Our whole goal is, of course, to [01:05:00] start the momentum by taking that action, writing that, that outreach, but I'm predicting that within 30 days or so, John, y- these are gonna become, inbound in a sense, or they're gonna be all referral based where you actually don't have to do a lot of outreach.
Dustin: They a- th- they're gonna come to you through referrals and through your own visibility in the marketplace where people are like, "I gotta have John on my show to talk about this, 'cause the thing he said about online course creators totally applies to my email newsletter podcast," right? Um, so again, as a encouragement to everyone, we're not talking about 50 cold outreaches here.
Dustin: We're talking about seeding this very strategically and intentionally. And because we're so specific with that, momentum will, will carry on, from there. so John, the good news is, in our audience, there are lots of creators, and authorities, and, uh, one-on-one coaches, and people leaving a legacy. A lot of your ideal clients are here.
Dustin: so what would be, uh, your advice or your next step for people who do wanna learn more about Sold Out Coach, your book, and, uh, all the things available to them with your methodology?
Chris: Go buy the book wherever books are sold. [01:06:00] Right? And that's the- It's probably on Amazon Oh, sorry. Sorry. No, no, I messed it up.
Chris: I messed it up. No, it's, uh, if you're, uh, if you're curious about the book, if you're curious about the idea of earning $10,000 per month group coaching 90 minutes per week, then I would encourage you to go to soldoutquiz.com. Uh, answer five quick questions in 60 seconds to get an instant report on whether or not you have what it takes to be a sold-out coach, uh, and unlock a bonus Sold-Out Coach crash course.
Chris: I didn't even tell you about this. It includes a bonus Sold-Out Coach crash course that actually gives you the, sort of the, I would call it CliffNotes, but I think that's trademarked, so the MeeseNotes version of the book. How about that?
Dustin: Beautiful. Soldoutquiz.com. If you're heard this interview and you're curious about Sold-Out Coach, and how group coaching might serve you and your goals, yeah, go take the quiz and take that, uh, magical next step.
Chris: And, uh, and yeah, man, I think, I think we got a killer strategy here. I hope this is really useful for everyone kind of eavesdropping on our conversation, and I'm really grateful, to be alongside you in your book launch. And then, you know, I'll be doing this for myself here in the coming months, uh, with your guidance as well, Thank you, [01:07:00] Justin. Keep up the good work [01:08:00]