Name the Problem, Own the Market: The 11 Elements of Positioning with Chris DuBois

Chris: [00:00:00] if you can name the problem, you have power over it.
Chris: And so you can do this in like your life, period. Like it's just a great practice to let's actually give this thing a name so that we can solve it. When you do this in business, if you have a name for that problem, people assume you have the solution because you're able to give it a name. And so when you start marketing this problem and talking about it everywhere, people come to you as the person with a solution.
Intro - Outro: You're listening to the Seven Figure Leap podcast. We're here to leverage rich relationships and smart strategies to take your business to the next level. Here's your host, Dustin Riechmann
Dustin: Positioning is everything. That's a big statement, but it's one that I, have come to believe, and in no small part because of today's guest.
Dustin: Chris DuBois has become a friend over the past several years. We've shared some stages [00:01:00] together. I've been on his podcast, and we went pretty deep on this topic, and what I wanted to do today was really unpack this
big idea of positioning and make it super tactical, implementable, and practical, whether you're an agency owner or a coach, and we'll talk about sort of our respective,expertise in those two areas.
Dustin: But these 11 elements of positioning we're gonna walk through today I think are really critical for any business, but especially an online business in the noisy, sort of trust, recession that we find ourselves in today. So Chris, thanks man for being here, and I think as a, a way to open it up today, I'd love to hear your definition of positioning and why you've chosen to be a positioning coach specifically.
Dustin: Yeah.
Chris: So it's a loaded question, but thanks for having me so I can unpack this. the... So let's start where, where most people think positioning, is just, like, the headline on your website, right? Like, the copy that you have, the things that you're putting out into the world, and usually there's some sort of formula of, like, we help these people do this with this model.
Chris: And, like, [00:02:00] it, that helps in a way, but, like, it's just too simple to really understand positioning. the way I like viewing positioning, the way that it was initially created, I think, by, Jack Trout, Al Ries, yeah, make sure I have their names right, but they wrote the book on positioning, right? And, and in it, it's like positioning only lives in the mind of the buyer.
Chris: And so we can influence positioning by making certain claims, doing certain things, but, like, we don't own the positioning. It completely lives in someone else's head. And so they, no matter what, are putting you in a box, and they're putting a label on that box. We want to influence which box we're put in, what that label says, where it's put on the shelf, like, all of those details so that when they do have a problem that we can solve, it's very easy for them to recall, who we are, what we do, why we do it, and why they should pick us instead of someone else.
Chris: that's probably the simplified version.
Dustin: Yeah. And, and we're obviously gonna go into a lot of depth about the elements of positioning, and I think as we do that, people will have a lot of light bulb [00:03:00] moments. I know I've had that, in our conversations in the past where it's like, "Oh, I hadn't really thought about that as part of my positioning."
Dustin: and, and these kind of fall in three buckets, so if people are following along and they wanna sort of take some notes and do some mental, math around which of these elements maybe they're lacking in or they could emphasize more because it's a, an area of strength in their company. and the three buckets, I'll call them, are positioning itself, structural levers, and then commitment levers.
Dustin: And- As we go through this, what Chris and I thought about, doing, he runs a company called Dynamic Agency OS. So he works with agencies, first and foremost, and as anyone who's familiar with Seven Figure Leap knows, we do help some agencies, but our primary target market is coaches and consultants.
Dustin: So I thought it'd be fun to let you unpack each of the levers in each of these three buckets, and then maybe we'll pause within, a bucket and you can talk about how this shows up for agencies specifically, and I can talk about what I've seen with coaching, and we can talk about our own businesses maybe as we wrap up towards the end and drive home for [00:04:00] people how these 11 elements, actually work in practice for two different successful businesses.
Dustin: So does that sound good?
Chris: That sounds perfect. And actually, I love that you call them buckets because that's what I called them, but I'm like, "Eh, is that the right name?" But because you just used it, I think that's the affirmation I need.
Dustin: We'll go with it. Yeah. Awesome. So yeah, man, there's 11 elements, and so that this is digestible for people, let's just start with the four positioning elements.
Dustin: I'll let you go through them, define them, and then we'll wrap a little bit about some things that we've seen for best practices.
Chris: Yeah. So I wanna set the stage with one thing first. 10 years ago, it was super easy to become, like, the only person in a category. that, I think, is one of those things that's actually dead, right?
Chris: Like, inbound marketing's dead. Like, eh, probably not. But this is actually dead. You can no longer just go into, the market and say, "We're the only company for roofers," or, "We're the only people who solve your problem this way," because the market is very good at exploiting, whatever, like, efficiencies they find.
Chris: And so if [00:05:00] they see something's working for you, someone is going to copy you tomorrow, and that no longer becomes your competitive advantage. So what we wanna do with these levers as we're going through them is, like, really you wanna find three to five of these. You don't need to have all 11 as like, "Oh, we're great in all of these."
Chris: You wanna find three to five where you are kind of towards the top of the pack. there are very few agencies that can keep up with you or, coaches, consultants. And when you find those, we then stack them. So now it's really hard for someone to come in and copy, five of these together when you're already in, like, the 80th percentile or better on all of them.
Chris: so we don't wanna look for the only. We wanna look for where are we already beating a lot of people, and then combine all of those in order to make this stack that is impossible for someone to just copy tomorrow.
Dustin: So the real unique positioning becomes in a combination of three to five of these 11 elements that we're gonna walk through.
Dustin: Okay. Gotcha. Yeah, I think that's perfect.
Chris: And it makes it so much easier when, I as a coach can... I have my model, I [00:06:00] have my, right, like, everything... I'm, I'm very focused on positioning, obviously. But so, everything I'm doing has a very deliberate purpose in why I'm doing it this way. But that makes it so that if someone comes to me for positioning help and the way I do things isn't jiving with them, it's so easy for me to say, "Well, then here's another coach you could go work with."
Chris: And it's like I'm not in competition with everyone. It's 'cause I know exactly who I'm the best fit for, and if the way I do things matches what you wanna do, then yeah, let's do business together. otherwise there is someone else who does exactly what you want. So we're kind of killing the idea of, like, who is the best positioning coach.
Chris: It's like, no, that's not a thing, right? It's who is the best fit for me, and, like, 'cause you have a specific thing that you want, and so now we can, we can align all these pieces, get really clear in your ICP in, in advance.
Dustin: I love that. Yeah, so it really drives the spirit of collaboration, right? and Chris is a, one of the best examples I've ever met of doing this well.
Dustin: He's very generous of saying, "Oh, you need this help?" Like, he has a Slack community that's very [00:07:00] active, and he's like, "That's sort of what I do, but this is exactly who you need because, it's the magic combination that's right for you at this time with your specific stated goals." So I love that as a precursor, To, letting the audience think through their strategic advantages and, and their combination specifically, and who do they like to work with and what do they wanna stand for, et cetera.
Dustin: all right. Very good.
Chris: Okay. So let's, yeah, let's get into these. So the positioning levers. first, the, this bucket, easiest to copy, right? This is where most people stop. when you hear, and I'm not trying to throw shade on this one, but most positioning coaches, air quotes for anyone just listening, who just look at messaging.
Chris: that's part of your positioning, right? How you're gonna be perceived by the market. But j- to just stop at, like, a headline on the site isn't enough, 'cause when that person starts working with you and they realize, like, oh, they don't actually, like, their actions don't match the headline that was on the site.
Chris: It's like if you say, "We prioritize speed in everything," but then in one week they say, "Hey, where's this deliverable?" And you say, "Well, we'll send it to you next week," it's like, [00:08:00] b- that's gone, right? You lost all credibility. so actions have to actually match the copy that's going out, which means we have to look at all of these levers, not just what can we say in order to try attracting someone.
Chris: yeah, all right. That's probably it for the caveats. We can just di- dive in here now. So the, with the, positioning levers. So the first one, is your market focus. This is one, like, everyone should have a market focus, right, in some way. I strongly recommend you, you pick a niche and go all in on it.
Chris: But, I mean, all the data says this is what you should do, right? Generalist agencies are de- definitely not winning as much as, specialized ones. And generally, you are specializing with an ICP first and then giving them a certain set of skills. The, the way I like breaking apart this niche is pick an industry, so that'll be your vertical.
Chris: Within every vertical, there is a sub-vertical. So say we wanna work in manufacturing, we could go textile manufacturing, paper manufacturing, right? There's some subset of that where we can get more specific. [00:09:00] easiest way to find these, go into, like a Bureau of Labor Statistics, anywhere, like, the
North American Industry Classification System, NAICS, has a code for every business.
Chris: If you can find the upper category code for the industry, when you click into it, it's gonna give you all of the subcategories, and you can just look through those and say, like, "Where do I have the most, like, knowledge and the ability to come in and help someone?" so that's your vertical. You then find the horizontal axis, which is a job function.
Chris: So, like, we wanna talk to CMOs in this area. We wanna talk to designers. maybe it's the CFO, CEO, CEO directly. those, the horizontal and the vertical, I did this inverted, but those are gonna overlap somewhere, right? When those cross, there is a set of problems that specific person has in this specific industry, and that leads us into the problem ownership, lever here of finding, like, what, what can we truly own?
Chris: Now, one thing before we jump into it, the very important thing with the market focus is that you shouldn't just pick a niche because it benefits you. There needs to be a [00:10:00] reason that this is a benefit to the end user. And
so saying Like, most people pick a niche because, hey, there's a good TAM, right?
Chris: There's plenty of people, they have money, it's easy to get, get ahold of them, like awesome. But why do they care, right? Like, what-- There has to be some sort of reason. So I've broken these down into three quick categories. Either you have expertise, right? You've done this before, you've been in the industry, so you know what you're doing.
Chris: You have an understanding, which means you were working in a different industry solving a same, the same problem. And so when you come over here, you're able to take new ideas, bring it to that problem set, and now you can help these people. Or you have resolve, which is like you have the passion, you have some reason why you are going all in on this space.
Chris: You,you're just, you care about these people. maybe you want to work with hospitals and clinics because you had a, you couldn't find a good clinic for a, a loved one, and that, that hurt you a lot, so now you're here. Those are all reasons that someone would want to hire you, and so we want to couple those with the market focus and the problem [00:11:00] ownership.
Dustin: Okay. So number one was market focus, and you talked about... 'cause that's one of the most critical ones, and it's sort of table stakes. Like, everyone really needs a market focus to have any level of success. And so we unpacked that a little deeper of industry, sub-industry, and then job function within that industry as your ICP or your ideal client profile.
Dustin: So who do you want to talk to in that sub-industry? And then number two is problem ownership. What problem do you want to solve for them? And I think both of these are often, at least influenced, if not sort of determined by your own lived experience, the thing you feel called to do, your mission, your own story.
Dustin: Like, a lot of that often translates into which market you want to serve and what problem do you want to solve for them, often because you've solved it for yourself, right?
Chris: 100%. so with problem, ownership, it's like there's a couple different things you wanna be thinking about first. Is this a problem that is actually worth solving?
Chris: I have the, a prism model. I can give you some links to a bunch of articles to, to share so we don't have to do a deep dive on all of these. but basically is it painful, [00:12:00] recurring, impactful, solvable, marketable? If it achieves high... And is there a spectrum, right? You can have something that's super painful, that happens once a year, like taxes.
Chris: It's like I could build a business on helping you with your taxes. can I change the US tax code? Probably not, but there are things I could be doing to work around this. So it's still solvable, but like in a different spectrum. but you could also take something that's not very painful, but it happens every single day, and so it's like water torture, right?
Chris: Just that drop on your head over and over, and it's like, just get rid of it. Get rid of the problem. And so it doesn't need to score high on everything, but overall it needs to be on a like, yeah, someone would pay me decent money to
solve this. so you have that. Then you also have to go through that, is it, do I have the experience, understanding, or resolve to solve this?
Chris: And if you can answer both of those, it's probably a s- problem worth solving. I think the last piece to really cover here is, there's something called the Rumpelstiltskin effect, where... Don't ask me how to spell his name. but the, the idea is like if you can name the problem, you have power over it.
Chris: And so you can do this in like your life, period. Like it's just a great practice to let's, let's [00:13:00] actually give this thing a name so that we can solve it. When you do this in business, if you have a name for that problem, people assume you have the solution because you're able to give it a name. And so when you start marketing this problem and talking about it everywhere, people come to you as the person with a solution.
Chris: When you go to your... When someone is on your website and you are just, you're talking about the problem they have, right? And you're, you name it, and you're just going into this problem. Here's how it's showing up. Here are the symptoms, right? All these different things. You stop inviting comparison the way that most business owners are doing this.
Chris: A lot of service providers will just put the things that they offer, and if you come to my site and it says, "I will help you with your positioning, I'll help you with your marketing, I'll, I'll do SEO," whatever. Someone is just gonna find a competitor and then compare us on price. they also do this for this price.
Chris: Like, is that worth it? Versus, "I will help you solve this problem if you have it." That's all you need to know. Like, let's, let's do business. and that is usually enough. yeah, okay. That's problem ownership. I'll come up for air quickly in case you
Dustin: No, this is great. Yeah, no, and I know we're not [00:14:00] gonna go as deep in all 11.
Dustin: These are really the like deep dive-able topics. We could do a whole episode just on problem ownership, right? And so, and I know you've got a lot of supplemental resources that we'll obviously link to for people that wanna kind of score themselves on their opportunity and, and taking a self-assessment through this, the spectrum of these different elements of market focus and problem ownership.
Dustin: But those are the, the first two and probably the big two, under the positioning levers.
Chris: your third one is gonna be your point of view. Everyone needs a point of view, just simple as that, right? Find the conventional wisdom in your space and use AI to do this. Hey, ask it for the conventional wisdom around whatever problem.
Chris: Say, "What do people think about this?" Go through the list and just figure out which one do I disagree with the most. That's probably your point of view, right? If it holds up, you can actually... Like, it's not just being a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian. It's like, "No, I truly believe this," right?
Chris: There's some conviction behind it. and then you just talk about that. And generally, you can create a statement of like, [00:15:00] "Most blank believe this. We believe this. Here's why." And that first blank, if... Quick pro tip, in our... So like in my space, we can either talk agencies as competitors or our end users.
Chris: If we're in a space where we, we're like a kind of an underdog and we want to compete with those bigger agencies, then we wanna talk about the competitors. If we're in a space that doesn't have a lot of competition, we don't wanna introduce other agencies to this, so we wanna talk about the end user. So most of our ICP believes this.
Chris: Here's what we believe. Here's why. And so you just kind of structure that based off what the end goal is with your positioning, because you are always being compared to someone. So do I want them comparing me to their current status quo or to the competition? and so you kind of dictate, that way.
Chris: your last one then, relationship capital. Super simple. This one's actually really hard. if you are, if you work with like influencers and stuff, like, you're an influencer marketing agency or, or someone, right? Then being able to have someone hire you because you can take their product and [00:16:00] immediately put it in the hands of like the hundred top YouTube influencers, right?
Chris: That's a reason someone would hire you. if you're friends with Oprah, and you can just take that product and give it to her, and she puts it on stage, and like everybody gets surprised, it's I would hire you for that if it means I'm going to have success. which is like, to say it differently, right?
Chris: We're trying to reduce risk in all of these. We're trying to let the buyer know that, like we have something that mitigates risk in all of these different ways to make it easier for them to purchase. And so just you can have that in the back of your mind. But those are the positioning levers. They're the easiest ones for someone to copy because a lot of it is just like a, a verbal, right?
Chris: Like we're just saying like, "I work with these people." Like how do you prove that? Now it's like, "Okay, well, we work with these people and look at my client roster," or like, "Look at the logos on my website." with the problem ownership, it's being able to have case studies and talking about this problem and how you've solved it.
Chris: like you need to find ways to have evidence behind all of these so that they become stronger.
Dustin: I love that. So positioning levers, market focus, problem [00:17:00] ownership, point of view, relationship capital. we can camp out here for just a second and maybe talk about some things you've seen in the agency world, just maybe one story or one example, where you've seen someone either screw this up or, or done really well with one of these elements.
Dustin: Does anything come to mind?
Chris: Most... So the screw up part's easy. we... All right, market focus, most people just pick an industry they don't really care about. They don't have... Like,
there's no- nothing at stake for them within this industry. There's no reason someone would buy. They're just like, "Hey, these people have money.
Chris: We had a couple clients in the past that we enjoyed." I have one client right now, wanted... Had a couple people in the legal space, so they wanted to work with divorce attorneys. they had good, a good history of getting results through these people, so they want- decided, "We're gonna go all in." at the same time, while we were starting to work on this positioning, they went to a conference where they, ended up selling, like, the...
Chris: we tweaked their presentation a bit so it was a little more generic because it was a generic audience. But the same things that we were going to tell [00:18:00] lawyers ended up selling them three veterinarian accounts in the, in that presentation. And so we've now shifted their positioning to like, "Hey, you've had vet clients before.
Chris: you've been successful with them, and they really liked hearing you talk at this convention to the point of, like, you just, doubled the number of vets in your, on your books. why don't we go here?" And now it's, it's... We're seeing that it's actually very easy to do this because their entire team is, like, excited to work with veterinarians way more than family law attorneys.
Chris: understandably, right?
Dustin: Yeah. I had a... It was actually the episode that precedes this one. I interviewed, someone on this podcast who is an NFL agent, and so sort of an agency maybe with, but with a different, a little different,application of the name. I would view him more as a coach, and the one that really jumped out to me in these four, market focus obviously is trying to recruit college talent and get them contracts in the NFL, as are all agents, right?
Dustin: so it's a pretty captive market. There's, like, 800 prospects a year, and 200 of them sign contracts, and [00:19:00] so he's one of these certified agencies for the NFL. s- but, so are all the other agents, right? problem ownership is pretty self-explanatory. Like you were saying, a lot of this is obvious in some markets.
Dustin: This is, like, what's gonna be on the website, right? But point of view is really unique for him because he's a military veteran. He grew up in a broken home. He left school at 16. He has this real underdog story where he ultimately, became very successful and became an NFL agent, right? And so his point of
view in his agency, his NFL agency, at least at this stage of their growth, is, the big agencies, you're just a number.
Dustin: The big agencies are gonna drop you, right after they sign you if you're not immediately getting a huge contract. I'm your lifelong partner, right? And he actually named his agency FAM, and it was the first, letter of that was forever, and his idea and his positioning, his point of view is, "I'm your lifelong partner in your career, and I am going to serve the underdogs in a way that no one else [00:20:00] can."
Dustin: That's a very unique positioning within a captive, kind of crowded market. So I think that's just a real good, live example from someone I talked to, just yesterday.
Chris: To build off this one, so if you were to look at market focus, right? He's pulling from the same universities, the same... Like, it's essentially the same pool, and so he's not gonna stand out with market focus.
Chris: Problem ownership is I gotta find people who are looking to get into the NFL. Like, that's the same problem for everybody, so we're not gonna stand out with that So we leave those two levers alone and we focus on the point of view, and then even relationship capital can... Maybe he has a really good relationship with certain sports teams, right?
Chris: And he's able to get them indirectly.
Dustin: Yes. He lives in St. Augustine. He knows the Jaguars. That's how he got... Be-become an agent, is he did security, work for the Jaguars, and so he has a disproportionately high ability to place people in the Jaguars organization because he has contacts and trust built with that organization.
Dustin: So if you're a prospect and you're like, "Florida sounds like a place I wanna go, and I'd love to play with, Trevor Lawrence," [00:21:00] like, he's probably gonna have a huge advantage because he has that relationship capital. Yep.
Chris: And so, yeah. So I would... From this bucket, I would look at, like, those are my two that I need to add into my stack.
Chris: And so as we go through, like, the others, it's, okay, how do I make sure these are coming through on my homepage, in every- when I'm talking, when I'm doing content? Like, I need to keep highlighting these things, 'cause for the
people who care about those, that's who I can best help. And so like, yeah, this is a great example for a
Dustin: Good.
Dustin: Well, that's, that's a, a, a mini lesson in the positioning levers. So let's move to structural levers. There's four of these as well.
Chris: So these ones are much harder to copy because they actually require you structuring your business differently, right? So the first one is your delivery model, and don't... So there's, there's two in here that often get confused.
Chris: You have your delivery model, and then you separately have your methodology and IP. Your methodology is thinking like, how do we do business? Like, what are, how are we thinking about these problems? the IP portion is like, do you have proprietary data and different things like that you can leverage, right?[00:22:00]
Chris: We've worked with this many people in this space, and we've collected all this data on like what tests work, what needs to happen on your website, and so we can just quickly run those same plays and get you results because of it. same thing for your methodology. It's like we know if we start with this in the strategy that we're able to get better results later, so we always start an engagement like this.
Chris: now your delivery model is how do we actually work with you to take that methodology and bring it to life? So maybe we're, we're doing group coaching, right? Maybe it's one-on-one. Maybe we're, we meet every other week. in, in my engagements, right? We're meeting every other week, but we're asynchronous in between.
Chris: So we're talking in Slack. We're still doing work, but we're only touching base once a week to make sure that you still have time to do everything else you have on your plate. some coaches meet weekly, and it's like we do a 30-minute thing weekly. Some only, what was it, Vox? Was that the... Yeah, a lot of people will hire coaches who just do voicemail, and it's like you send me a message, I will respond.
Chris: You have me anytime. Just send the message and I will, I will reply as soon as I get [00:23:00] it. like so there's to- a lot of different delivery models and that will depend. Like some people don't wanna do voicemail. So like I
have, I've ran some cohorts. I have had people who have told me, "I do not wanna be in a cohort.
Chris: I just want you to focus on me," and they end up becoming one-on-one clients even though I was trying to push them into a group environment. and so if I only did one thing, it's like I would've lost that client which that's probably a bad case for not doing just one thing. You should do one thing. but important in this, I only do one thing.
Chris: It's just how do I wanna deliver it? anyways, tangent.
Dustin: Yeah, so but that's a good point. Like under the structural levers, the delivery model may or may not be a point of emphasis for your company. You may have options to do done with you, done for you, one-on-one. I'll move into your house and do this, like for you like really, really, really intimately.
Dustin: But for some people like me, community is really important to our delivery model and group coaching is the thing that we specialize in, right? So I just don't do one-on-one coaching. I, I only do it to support the clients who are in a group, right? And so our de- [00:24:00] our delivery model, for example, is one of our strong positioning statements because we're very committed to it.
Dustin: But that's one of-- I'd say that's one of the key three to five of mine as we'll, recap, a little later. So the first one in the structural levers is delivery model, and obviously it kind of bleeds over into the next three. But, let's, yeah, let's go through the next three and then we can, we can jam on kind of how they tie together.
Chris: Sure. So your, operational constraints is another one. So what are you willing to say no to? because often that tells, that says a lot more about what you will do. And so saying, "We only do SEO as an agency. We will not manage your social media. We will not do your website," right? "We are only... We are really good at writing blog content, and we will crush it for you.
Chris: that's all we focus on. So if you are someone who cares about getting the best results in this one field, we're the people for you." You can also say, there's a couple other ways you can leverage this, but saying, "We only work with 10 clients at a time." "If any more than that, we start to, we find that we- we're watered down too much and we're diluting our services.
Chris: [00:25:00] so we will only work with 10 clients. If you want to be part of that, join the wait list. if you want to be part of that 10, it means you're
getting our full attention." Like that matters to a lot of people, and so it's a good reason for someone to come in. the talent is your last one. This one's actually really hard as well because everybody thinks they have the best talent.
Chris: but if you are going to claim that we have great talent on your site and you think that's helping you stand out, that's because you're assuming everyone else that you're competing with has bad talent, right? Like, oh, their teams all suck. we know that's not true. They're hiring from the same pool.
Chris: They probably have great talent as well. They're to have strong talent. It could be like, hey, you were in this space, like going back to the marketing focus of having experience. Maybe you worked in this space forever and you have knowledge that nobody else does. And so if you are personally in every strategy presentation, that's a good, good call.
Chris: one of the... I can never remember which one it is, but I'm pretty sure it's the founder of Marketing Brew, runs an agency now. So if you are someone [00:26:00] who wants like a good newsletter, that's a reason to, to hire the guy who built one of the biggest newsletters in the world, right? And so like, that's what we're looking for when you talk talent.
Chris: It's like, it's not just, oh, we have senior level talent, although that can be helpful. If you're... Ad agencies are terrible at this. They will bring you in with senior level talent and immediately swap in some junior level, employee, and then like you're kinda stuck at that point, so you got...
Chris: You're locked into a contract. And so being able, in that space, being able to say, "Hey, we do this. This is, we will only have senior level talent. Whoever sells you on this account is on your account forever." Unless they leave the company or like they, you ask for someone to change maybe.
Chris: yeah, those are... So that's, that's it for that one.
Dustin: So structural lever, lever, levers, delivery model, and we sort of combine that in the discussion with methodology and IP, which is a separate lever that's, can be related, which would be like your frameworks, your proprietary information, your,market data, things like that, that only you, [00:27:00] can provide.
Dustin: Three, operational constraints, and four, talent, Yeah, when you-- I'm kind of picking up on the more obscure ones, I think. But, like, when you said talent, the example that jumped out to me, I think of StoryBrand, and I think of
StoryBrand at, like, their, the consulting arm. they have Donald Miller, pretty strong talent.
Dustin: New York Times bestselling author, and he's got a lot of credibility if you're an author or, he has, a history in, like, memoir writing and book marketing. So that's one piece of talent. But the one that jumps out to me when people go and spend a lot of money to have StoryBrand do their messaging is Dr.
Dustin: J.J. Peterson is on staff, right? And he's literally a PhD in storytelling and, manuscripts and things like that. And so, like, where else are you gonna get that? So talent could be the founder's unique skill set and talent and experience. It could be that like, oh, you work with big, consulting-level corporate, firms.
Dustin: We've got six PhDs on staff. Like, well, that's a big differentiator if that is an important part of your positioning for the market, if, if your market cares [00:28:00] about that, right? any, quick stories or examples here around the structural levers that you think are worth calling out? On the agency side?
Chris: Man, there's probably ton- I think, w- let's use, podcast, booking agencies.
Dustin: There you go. Yeah,
Chris: let's do that. We'll go with one, right? Because I, I find even in the agency space, I've had a lot of clients ask, "Should I hire these guys in order to just get me on podcasts?" And so if you have incredibly strong positioning, you don't have to worry about your message.
Chris: Like, you know what to say already, and you have all these other pieces lined up, then yeah, maybe it is the right play for you. but if you don't have any of those details, then it's not. And so when you look at, like, their delivery model for most of these podcast agencies is just, "I'm gonna do cold outreach to as many podcasts as I can, try to get you on the show.
Chris: If it works out, awesome." oftentimes they don't even... Like, I have one who got me one good guest, like put one on my show, and every other guest they've recommended has nothing to do with the agency space. And it's like, why? Like, I thought we had something going. But that [00:29:00] relationship could be a thing too.
Chris: Like if, right, if they had a good relationship with Joe Rogan and they're like, "Hey, we're gonna get you on the biggest podcast ever. All you have to do is work with us." Like, okay, that's a pretty good one. but yeah, we see that happen, quite a bit. But if they, so if they need actual help with being, like, learning how to guest, how to create their message, how to show up and do the right things, then they would hire someone like you to be in this, this group community where they get to learn from everybody.
Chris: Like it's, it's, right, it's so easy to see the positioning of, like, who we're the best fit for.
Dustin: Yeah. It's a different operational model. It, it's a great, it's a great example because the problem, and even the market focus could be the exact same as me. It could be like, "We help coaches use podcast guesting as a marketing strategy."
Dustin: Okay. my point of view is that's a very incomplete solution, right? And that the getting on a podcast is one very small part of a much bigger,opportunity, that you're gonna miss out on if, if that's, the, the way you go. as we talked about delivery model, [00:30:00] in my case, you're gonna get me with hundreds of guesting ex- appearances.
Dustin: You're gonna get alumni coaches who have done hundreds of guesting experiences, and not just to get on podcasts, but to make profit from it. And that's a big part of our point of view is the podcast are a means to an end. It's actually about growing your business and being profitable. and that is our primary focus.
Dustin: So our, Therefore, our, operational constraint is we don't just place you on podcasts because we feel like that is actually doing you a disservice. What we will do in our operational model is train someone on your team to do this for you on an ongoing basis so that you don't have a dependency on us.
Dustin: and we're also gonna, go a lot deeper in the method than just placement. It's like, what do you say? How do you find the right ones? What do you say on them? And then how are all the ways you're gonna leverage that in your business? So that's a really easy and great distinction where the, some of the positioning levers are similar.
Dustin: We have some strong differentiation there, but then the structure of our delivery model is completely different than what a booking agency would
propose to the same client who has the [00:31:00] same, who has the same problem, right?
Chris: And that was a great use of operational constraints too. like I have it within my own business.
Chris: It's if you do my full program, it's 90 days, and the goal is, like, I w- you are probably reliant on referrals right now. When you finish with me, I don't want you just reliant on me. I want you to be able to go forth, like spread your wings. and so at 90 days, I have to be okay with my business model knowing that at 90 days we're done.
Chris: there are things you could hire me for, but it's like, but I, I need to trust that at 90 days I need to find a new client. And for a lot of coaches, like that isn't something they wanna do. They wanna maintain that engagement as long as humanly possible, which could be a disservice for you, right? And so like, so that's how I get to use it within my own business.
Dustin: That's really good. All right, so those are the structural level- levers. and then the final bucket, is the commitment levers, which I think is probably the most unique. To me, this really starts getting into what I would often call
like the offer details or the offers or the offer elements, but I really love that it's part of the 11 positioning elements.
Dustin: So there's three of these. So what are the [00:32:00] three commitment levers?
Chris: Yeah, so your commitment levers are really about how you put skin in the game to prove all of the other levers, right? And so, first one is like your economic model. how you are essentially incentivized to make money matters. easiest example, when I was, starting as a coach, I charged $500 a month, but for every 10K of revenue I helped a client bring in, my pay went up another 500.
Chris: And so that's a long... Like it now incentivized me to work with the client to do, help them with their marketing, not just tell them what they should do, but actually like get my hands dirty. and like for, I had one client who went from 2K a month in revenue to 83K a month in nine months, and it was because I was like, I knew my pay went up every time I helped him, and so it's like, "Let's go."
Chris: the but yeah, so like now, I can, I still structure some deals like that. If I see an agency that's just, they're smaller, they probably don't have all the revenue, they would need, but I [00:33:00] see promise in them, and like I, then I can run that play, and like that economic model might be the reason someone hires me.
Chris: it could also just be the way you're priced. If you're a better priced option, I work with sub million dollar agencies. I do not want to, like I can't price at $10,000 a month, because they just can't afford it. And so, and I realize there's a gap in the market for good coaching and for the smaller tiered agencies, so I've built my business around how can I still get paid what I need to in order to survive, but do it at a lower price point so that I can help these agencies work.
Chris: and so yes, you reckon it could be a performance basis, right? You get a lot of, And this is probably like a warning statement. Anyone on LinkedIn has probably been pitched tons of times with lead gen agencies, and they all promise, you won't pay until you get a, a client or you get a meeting booked.
Chris: But when everyone says the same thing, it's now not a good positioning statement, right? We're not actually differentiated with this. And so what I would challenge anyone in a lead gen agency, to do is actually find something else you could [00:34:00] promise that people care about when looking for leads, 'cause that's, 'cause you're not gonna stand out with that same cold pitch that's one.
Chris: The, let's see, your outcome. This is often tied directly to the problem, right? So, like, if you know what the problem is, you should know what the outcome is. But that dream outcome is being able to promise something huge. the bigger that promise can be, the more likely someone will work with you, but you have to be able to deliver on it.
Chris: So again, you gotta be able to prove it with your case studies, with examples, being able to demonstrate all of these things. Sometimes those outcomes are not what the person is wanting initially, right? So being able to know, "Hey, this is what you think you need, but... Or this is what you want, but this is what you actually need."
Chris: and being able to highlight those things so they can see all the various ways they're going to get help. and then ob- obviously, all of these levers are tied to each other in various ways. Like, your delivery model will influ- and
your methodology are gonna influence that outcome as well. And so, like, you have to tie all the pieces together.
Chris: and then your last one's your risk reversal. And so it's basically while we're trying to [00:35:00] mitigate risk through all of these levers, this is the big claim of a guarantee. hey, we're, like, we wanna take on as much risk for our part as we can, while still, not, obviously not breaking everything.
Chris: The bigger the risk you're willing to take on, it shows real commitment. I would never do a money-back guarantee because you will generally attract the people who only want their money back.
Dustin: Yep. And definitely don't lead with that as... If your mon- if you have a money-back guarantee, a huge risk that I've seen i- in coaching space, I'm sure you've seen in the agency space, is people lead with that.
Dustin: I mean, there was a, I won't name a name, someone got in some pretty hot water 'cause, like, his ads were literally like, "Earn $10,000 in the first month working with us or your money back." Well, guess who that attracts? Desperate people who aren't gonna do the work, and it's like, that is a really bad positioning, e- even if it's true.
Dustin: and, and we'll talk as we get into the closing part here about how we handle risk reversal. But, that, yeah, I, I love that sort of cardinal rule in most... I mean, if you're selling a $2 meat stick or something like I [00:36:00] used to, yeah, maybe money... You love it or you get your, we'll double your money back.
Dustin: Okay, it's a $4, risk. and almost no one's gonna take you up on that. And, a- and it, to drive trial, that might make sense. But in the world we're actually focused on here with agencies and coaching, where this is a high effort, high engagement, service that you're devoting time to, you, you can't get that back, right?
Dustin: And in many cases, the client has to also carry their own water, and so you can't take on undue risk because you ultimately can't control everything about- Yeah ... about the engagement. but yeah, so yeah, any, any other thoughts on risk reversal?
Chris: Yeah. Often providing more effort on something you can control is the answer for the guarantee.
Chris: 'Cause you want pe- you want to attract people who are gonna care more about the outcome. And so, m- in my own business, when I started, I was promising, I called it the 10K guarantee, and it was like, if you work with me and within 90 days after finishing my program you still haven't closed at least 10K of new business, I will continue working with you for [00:37:00] free.
Chris: I never had to use that, that guarantee because, one, the timeframe was long enough that... And hopefully I was doing my job right, so it worked. but sometimes it was like I had to really help them grind to make sure that we were good and they had, had the business. now I've kinda realized like, no, I need to just promise what I can actually put my hands on, because sometimes my clients don't do the work they need to, right?
Chris: They get busy in delivery and all these other things, and we show up to the next meeting and they're like, "Yeah, I didn't do any of the marketing assets." Like, okay, well we're not gonna get b- business, right? Like no leads are coming in. that's not a me problem. The... And so now it's like, I have a full operating system for your marketing that I can promise you by the end of our engagement will be fully delivered and you will be able to run it with minimal time investment on your part.
Chris: And so, like, so this won't-- The saying like, "Oh, I'm too busy to do my marketing," will never be an argument you can use again. and that has been working, working fine as well because the people who I want to work with care about that as a re- It's like, yeah, I want to have that as my solution.
Dustin: [00:38:00] Yeah.
Dustin: Because they're busy agency owners or sub-million. They're, they're doing, wearing a lot of hats. They're grinding. They need a... One of the reasons they would choose you is they need an operating system that, gets them out of referral dependency and gets them off of Chris dependency at the end of 90 days.
Dustin: And part of your core promise there is, that outcome that, that goes back to the, the second thing we talked about under commitment, that dream outcome. That's part of your dream outcome, right? Awesome. Well, what I'm gonna do real quick is kind of run through the 11 verbally, s- as a quick recap, and what I would love for the listener to do as I'm doing that is start to s- kind of mentally circle or physically circle the three to five that you're like, that's one that's gotta be absolutely key for us.
Dustin: That's a big point of differentiation. When I think of a combination of, of positioning factors, these are the three to five that really jump out." and so I'm gonna go through the 11, and then Chris and I can talk about his company and my company and sort of the three to five that we emphasize as a live demonstration of, of how this is [00:39:00] working for us.
Dustin: So positioning levers, market focus, problem ownership, point of view, relationship capital. Structural levers, delivery model, methodology or IP, operational constraints, and talent. And then the final one we just covered, commitment levers, economic model, dream outcomes, and risk reversal. So those are sort of your menu of options.
Dustin: you're not gonna be able to do all 11, or like you're not gonna be able to focus on all 11 as like the things you really, hold out and emphasize in your positioning and marketing, but three to five. anything, any gaps you wanna fill there before we close by letting you talk about your three to five and I'll talk about my three to five?
Chris: Yeah. No. I mean, there's probably gaps and there's a, a lot... I'm currently, currently writing the book on this and realizing how much deeper I can go on every single lever. and so, yeah, my editor, whoever I end up working with, will have a field day figuring out what to cut.
Dustin: I've had a similar experience writing a book on [00:40:00] podcast guesting and, and, it was interesting, like doing this interview with you, I just turned in the manuscript last week, and I'm thinking about what I've emphasized in the title, the subtitle, sort of like the structure of the book.
Dustin: there's the things I wrote stars on my Post-it note that I'm gonna talk about for our company. I think, to give myself some credit, I did a good job and the book is consistent with the company as far as the things I wanna emphasize in there about my point of view, who we serve, our methodology.
Dustin: Like, these are some of the key things that are part of my positioning and therefore,the book's a representation of the brand and it's a tool in the positioning, toolbox. So yeah, let's... tell us about like with Dynamic Agency OS and the positioning coaching work that you do, are there three to five of these that you feel are the most Critical to, your own positioning?
Chris: Yeah. so I try to u- incorporate as many as possible for my own stuff.
Dustin: You are a living example of it, so you kinda have to, kinda have to do that, right?
Chris: Yeah. the big ones for me, so one, market focus because I, I generally work [00:41:00] with sub-$1 million agencies, because sh- under that market I have experience working with these people.
Chris: I grew an agency from that point above, like into the three million range. so that's one. Your methodology and IP, the Dynamic Agency OS is the name of the company, and that is the methodology. It is a positioning operating system to be able to do everything we just talked about, plus market the stuff.
Chris: problem ownership, it's kind of twofold. I talked... For a while I was talking referral reliance because most agencies re- are reliant on referrals, to do this. Now, this is an interesting positioning take because a lot of other coaches started using that language, and so you couldn't look up referral reliance and necessarily point it back to me.
Chris: And so I was thinking more about this and I realized delivery drag is actually the real problem, 'cause most agencies I talk to get so stuck in delivery that they're not doing marketing, so the only leads they can get are from referrals. And so referral reliance stems from the delivery drag problem. So I kind of use those, to chat, but that's the problem that I generally lean [00:42:00] into.
Chris: my talent pool is really just me. It is me working the company. And, like I've ran an agency, I've done all, all the things. and then risk reversal is like you... When you're done with me, you will have a full working marketing system tied to your positioning. You will have all the assets you need to market yourself and the ability to then put all this stuff into the world.
Chris: so when I, yeah, when I combine those, and you can go check out my website, my About page. I hate About pages generally on websites, and I walk through how you could think about an About page. So I'm showing like not only like here are some metrics that I've earned, but it's like I explain why that's a metric that I would want you to see based on my positioning.
Chris: And like, and it's, it's really just like a, I don't know, an educational page for how to do this for yourself.
Dustin: I love that. Yeah. Definitely check out Chris' About page and, it's sort of that meta, watching a positioning coach basically describe their positioning
and then sort of have the, the tool tip, like, "And this is why I'm using this here, and this is an example of this."
Dustin: I love that. It's sort of [00:43:00] similar to when I do podcast guesting about podcast guesting, and I'm doing the thing but also explaining it as I'm doing it so people can kind of understand, the art and science of what they're experiencing live. that's really good. So in our company at Seven Figure Leap, our flagship program, the Podcast Profits Accelerator, when I think of these, a few that stood out, we talked already a little bit about market focus and problem ownership.
Dustin: we work with coaches and consultants, generally solopreneurs, and a problem, that I hear all the time that we've started to leverage, and it's the opening line in the book, is, "I'm really good at what I do and I'm not very good at marketing myself." And our-- the problem that we own is taking that reality and flipping it to let you do more of what you love to do and make it into your marketing, right?
Dustin: By education-based podcast interviews, in front of your ideal clients. So those are two, foundational ones for us. relationship capital is one I hadn't really thought about, but I think that's one of our strengths. for one, I'm pretty well connected with the podcasting community, so I [00:44:00] can make a lot
of direct connections and referrals for our clients.
Dustin: But also, we have this community of 300 other people who are constantly doing podcast guesting. half of them host podcasts, and they're all founders and coaches and consultants who see the world through a common point of view, and they've all been trained in our 90-Day Accelerator. And so it's a real rich network of relationship capital, right?
Dustin: Like from day one, you get a lot of collaboration and partnerships and direct referrals on the podcast because of this community that we've created, and that is very unique and a big point of differentiation from, say, like a booking agency or, a different person who addresses the same problem. And then we talked a little bit about our delivery model is unique in that we run a 90- Day Accelerator.
Dustin: We do groups of 12. We're really committed to group coaching. We've had 23 of these, c- sold-out cohorts, 100% satisfaction. Like we're some of the best in the world at group coaching, and so we've stayed really committed to that being our delivery model. And even if our clients don't seek that initially,
part of what we want to do is educate them on why [00:45:00] this is actually a better solution than some of the other options that they're considering.
Dustin: And then in the commitment levers I would say risk reversal is a big one for us. Again, we don't lead with this because it-- I think it's the wrong thing. It attracts the wrong motivation. But when someone's like, "This makes sense to me, this is actually, the outcome I'm seeking," we do have a risk reversal that, you come into the 90-day accelerator and you do your part.
Dustin: So you show up to the sessions and you follow the framework and the methodology that we're gonna give you, and we're gonna, give you a, a white glove support to make sure you can do that. Within the 90 days that you're in that accelerator, you will generate at least $10,000 in new revenue. And if you don't, I will work with you.
Dustin: Dustin will work with you personally until we accomplish that milestone, right? and there's been a couple people we've done that with. In general, we don't need to, right? In general, people get the results or, there's always a handful of people who are like, "You know what? This is taking longer than it should and it's not your fault, it's my fault.
Dustin: Like I, I pivoted, I had something come up." and so I think it's important to have a [00:46:00] strong risk reversal but have appropriate caveats that like, "You have to do your part. We're definitely gonna do our part and here is how we're gonna address it if we haven't hit that milestone together." and we've always hit that milestone sometimes with a little extra effort because that's my commitment, right?
Dustin: Like that's, that's the, the risk reversal that I'm providing our clients. So, man, I love this. I'm really glad, for anyone listening this far in. Chris and I, recorded a version of this and, it got lost in the ether and then the same thing happened when I was on his show. I think it was all for the better because this was a very focused masterclass in positioning and we got to go through each of the elements and provide people some great examples.
Dustin: so Chris, as people are digesting this and probably need some additional coaching support on it, like what's the best next step for people who may want to engage you or just learn more about the work that you do, so they can go deeper with you?
Chris: Yeah. So probably the easiest way, to get into this, if you go to dynamicagencyos.com/snapshot It is a free offer I have now.
Chris: I will [00:47:00] personally look at your, your positioning. So like what is out there in the market right now, like you don't get to influence this at all. and I will tell you what levers are you are likely showing up for and who that is likely attracting to you. If you s- you read this and you're like, "Oh, this isn't what I want to be doing.
Chris: This isn't the picture I want to be,presenting," we can talk about how we can actually help you, with this and, and make it super easy. I got a bunch of assets you can... I can just hand you. You can talk about working with me, all those things. But dynamicagencyos.com/snapshot
Dustin: Love that ...
Chris: is probably the easiest path.
Dustin: Very good call to action. so dynamicagencyos.com, slash snapshot. don't take that lightly. you can actually get Chris' personal insight on your positioning. He's someone I trust deeply, and he's, become a good friend and, and someone I rely on for positioning advice and, someone I, I send people to for this type of work.
Dustin: So Chris, man, your gift to me, your gift to the podcast, thank you so much for, doing this again, and I, I think doing it better and [00:48:00] putting together an amazing masterclass on positioning. So thank you, my friend.
Chris: Awesome. Thanks for having me. I look... I just enjoy talking to you, so this was great. [00:49:00]