From Burned-Out Lawyer to Seven Figure CEO: Building a Business to Last

[00:00:00] Dustin: To the seven podcast. Today's question is. How do you create a thriving online business if the thing you're an expert at is boring? Uh, I have a lot of personal experience with this, and my guest today, Sam Vander wheen, has uh, even more experience and she's done some really cool stuff with her foundation as a lawyer and as a legal expert.
[00:00:22] Dustin: And we're gonna talk about how she's parlayed that into an online business that covers way more than just legal topics. Uh, I actually met Sam at Craft and Commerce this year. We were both invited to a private dinner. We ended up sitting next to each other and I felt like we just had this like immediate rapport.
[00:00:37] Dustin: And then we ended up in a room of like 60 people sitting right next to each other for a mastermind. And then I was in the front row as she presented her signature talk, which was amazing. And so I'm super grateful to be able to welcome Sam today to the podcast. So Sam, thanks so much for being here.
[00:00:52] Dustin: Please, uh, take a few minutes and kind of introduce yourself and let people know a bit about your story and we'll, we'll dig in from there.
[00:00:59] Sam: Thanks. [00:01:00] For having me here. I'm so happy to be here. Um, yeah, I I was so lucky to get to meet you at Craft and Commerce, by the way, and you left out the part where we got do the two minute drills for
[00:01:11] Dustin: Oh, that's right.
[00:01:12] Sam: game. That was very fun. Yeah. So we'll have to tell people what that was about, but, 'cause that was, I, I think about it all the time actually.
[00:01:19] Sam: Um, yeah. But I was a corporate attorney who was also very miserable and stuck in a very, very victimy place in her life. Um, going around blaming everybody and everything for my horrible boss and horrible circumstances and horrible hours and everything else until I actually had like a really scary, plain incident on the way home, uh, back to where I'm originally from.
[00:01:44] Sam: Philadelphia. It literally shook me to taking action. I had always wanted to start my own business. I was very entrepreneurial since I was a kid. And within days of that plane incident, I actually did start a business, um, on the side while still [00:02:00] working quietly, um, you know, full-time. And within months was able to leave my job, start an online business, and I actually left to start a health coaching business.
[00:02:10] Sam: I wanted to do something totally different, ditch the suit, you know, get away from the law. And as much as I tried, I could not shake people asking me a whole bunch of legal questions about the industry I was then in and this whole on at the time, very new emerging online business world. And I led with my favorite word in the world, curiosity.
[00:02:32] Sam: And I was like, why are people asking me these things? Where else can they get this or not get this? What problems are they running into and trying to get this product or service? And what can I create that's better or different? And so in 2017, I launched. Sam Vander Willin, LLC started helping people legally protect online businesses, and within two years it was a multi seven figure business and has been every single year [00:03:00] since.
[00:03:01] Dustin: That's amazing. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Well, your story, the airplane story, I'm sure you. Hear this a lot too. It's like once you hear that, you can't unhear it either. So even in flying home from Boise, I had two flights to get back home to St. Louis. And, uh, yeah, the whole time I'm like, I hope we don't drop a thousand feet into like rapid turbulence and change my life, uh, you know, in a, in a crazy way.
[00:03:20] Dustin: So, um, yeah, that's why don't you tell us a little bit about that story and um, like why do you think that was this like culminating moment or this transitional moment where you actually took action for something it sounded like you kind of wanted to do since you were a kid?
[00:03:35] Sam: A lot of times when you're in a stressful period or you're unhappy, it's easy. It's always easier to blame everybody else or outside circumstances or something outside of yourself, right? And I think sometimes when it's bad enough you can just go so far down this rabbit hole of like, you can't even see straight to see where there actually is opportunity for you to make a change.
[00:03:59] Sam: [00:04:00] And so I was, I was in that place. I actually tell this story in my book, but I went to, I was having a lot of neck pain, which turned out to be very serious and I needed brain surgery for it. But at the time, at the
time it was just regular neck pain and I, or I thought it was, and so I went to this guy who was supposed to be like, you know, neck ssay and he was gonna fix me and.
[00:04:21] Sam: He said to me, what? What seems to be the matter? Like what's the stress in your life? I was like, oh, the stress is my job. And he said, what's wrong with your job? So I go on and on and on telling him all the horrible things about my boss, the job, the hours, the clothes, the everything. And he says, Hmm, that's okay.
[00:04:37] Sam: That's your choice. I was so angry when he said that. I was like, how dare you say it's my choice. I'm not choosing this. Like this is a horrible thing. My boss sucks. He's a jerk. All these things, right? And it was just so funny because until I got on that plane and the plane did drop as Dustin mentioned, and barrel rolled to the left, um.
[00:04:59] Sam: [00:05:00] I, I really, I, I was angry at this guy for having said that, right in that moment. It was like that seatbelt click where I got it. I got what he was talking about, and I was making a choice to get in my car and to go to this job to continue to live the lifestyle that I was living, which then required to make the amount of money I was making as an attorney, like, which none of those things were fulfilling me or making me happy.
[00:05:24] Sam: And, uh, yeah, I had lots of opportunity. I had a great education behind me. I had a supportive, uh, partner who then became my husband. Um, yeah, I had lots of opportunity and, and I wasn't taking it. So that's really to me what that like, I think the plane incident hopefully comes a lot less scary, you know, to other people.
[00:05:43] Sam: But it's that moment that shakes you awake that realizes you have more control than you think.
[00:05:47] Dustin: That's amazing. And, and so you, uh, luckily land safely after this, uh, crazy incident where, um, it didn't probably feel like that was gonna happen and then you start the health coaching [00:06:00] business. I know that was a really important chapter and then. People kept coming back to you though and saying, Hey, you're doing online business, but like, what about the legal stuff?
[00:06:08] Dustin: You are an attorney by trade and then you mentioned the book, and so the book, when I start my business, I'll be happy, uh, with the question mark at the end. Um. Give us the through line. It's like, hey, lawyer,
health coach, uh, writing this book that is sort of not about either of those things, although it sort of is about all of those things.
[00:06:26] Dustin: So what, what would you say is kind of the through line and then we'll come back and talk more about like your actual business today, the model, how you make money, all that good stuff. Um, but I'd love it in your words to kind of like, because in my own experience, you know, I've got this crazy background of engineering and marriage and meat sticks and marketing and then like podcast guessing, and everyone's like, what?
[00:06:45] Dustin: Like what's the through line? So I'd love Sam like your through line and sort of like when you reflect back, like how you got to where you're at, sitting here today on this podcast and speaking at craft and commerce and writing this amazing book, um, that came out of this like kind of wild journey [00:07:00] that you've been on in your adult life.
[00:07:02] Sam: I mean, it's funny because hearing your story and getting to know you at Craft and Commerce, like it all makes sense to me because when I, I think that everybody's experience, like every single thing you go to, they might look disjointed on paper and you're like, oh, I needed every single, I needed those meat sticks to get to this thing.
[00:07:18] Sam: You know? And so like, it's, it's so true. But that's, that's very similar to my story in that, you know. When I was an attorney and I was still blaming everything on everybody else, and then I had this aha moment of like, oh, I'm going to go leave and start my own business. I was still doing it from a place of like, that job is what's making me unhappy.
[00:07:37] Sam: So when I changed my job, I will be happy. I was still technically blaming my boss for everything or the, the type of work I was doing. But I just thought that I could take back control of my life. It's still, it still kind of connoted that he had control and then I had control, that kind of thing. So I think I needed that, like I needed another lesson.
[00:07:57] Sam: And so I left and started this health [00:08:00] coaching business and. I kinda have this image in my mind of like kicking back in a lounge chair on the beach, just being like, huh, now I've made it, you know, it's over and this will be it. And it was like pretty fast. I was like, oh, shoot, this is not it. Right? And it, it wasn't really for me.
[00:08:14] Sam: I mean, coaching is not for me. I'm not good at it. Uh, I am, I'm a good businesswoman and I know marketing like the back of my hand, but
that's about it. Not a good, I'm not a good coach. I was not meant to do that. Um. And so I started doing that, that kind of work, and again, was like a little indignant about like, well wait a minute, I changed my circumstances and I'm still not happy.
[00:08:36] Sam: Like, what the heck is this about? So I go and follow this curiosity, as I mentioned, and I start the legal business and that's successful off the bat. Okay? I will now. You're successful. So are you happy now? Um, uh, not really. I mean, I was a little less stressed, you know, I was like, oh, well this is pretty easy and this is fun.
[00:08:54] Sam: But as you know, I started to go through a series of, of like really [00:09:00] difficult circumstances in my life. I had brain surgery almost immediately after starting my legal business. And then literally when I got back on my feet and started walking again, my dad got leukemia, I became his caregiver. My dad passes away, and then my mom is killed the same year.
[00:09:15] Sam: That my dad passes away. It was just an unimaginable amount of trauma and grief and stress and, and then you add COVID on top of it, everything else. So to me it was like this irony that I go, I leave, I do all these things and I finally, I create a business that's making way more money than I knew what to do with or needed, and.
[00:09:35] Sam: Look at all these terrible things that happened, and I just think that that was a really great lesson in being like, it's not gonna come from any of this. It's not this magical moment. You're waiting for this guy on a white knight, you know, horse that's gonna arrive. None of that is happening. It's here now.
[00:09:50] Sam: It's being here now. It's being appreciative for what I have now. It's not for any of the the material things that are coming. Yeah. And there's just nothing [00:10:00] left for me. To accomplish even in this business that, that I'm even waiting for at this point to be like, once I do that, then I'll be it. They really taught me the lesson.
[00:10:08] Sam: I, I think I needed to learn.
[00:10:10] Dustin: That's beautiful. I love, of course, I hate the circumstances that you had to go through to kind of the crucible, I guess, you kind of went through, you know, to learn these lessons and really build, internalize them and you know, you've internalized them to such a point that you can write an entire book and do signature talks and everything about this topic and.
[00:10:30] Dustin: Definitely wanna talk about the nitty gritty and, and the business model too. But one last, I guess, foray into this, um, you know, you got a whole book and people should definitely go pick up the book and, and go deep. Especially if they're feeling this sense of when I do the next thing, then I'll finally be happy.
[00:10:46] Dustin: Or when I start the business, I'll be happy. Or when I get to seven figures, I'll be happier. What, whatever that if then statement is for them. Um, but if someone's in that space and they're sort of, you know, Sam circa. 2020 and, and at different [00:11:00] points, hard question, but I'll throw it out there anyway. Like, uh, what does make us happy if, if it's not starting the business and hitting the, the goal, the goalpost or the horizon line that we're chasing, um, and your experience and then the work that you've done to create this book and, and talk so much about this in depth, what are the things you think that make us happy?
[00:11:21] Dustin: Like, the hardest question ever to ask someone on a podcast, but I feel like you can, you can actually answer this pretty well.
[00:11:26] Sam: Yeah. Honestly, I think it's contentment. I think it's as simple as contentment of just really getting out of that cycle, which is so hard to do as an American, especially that like if you just work harder, faster, stronger, bigger, whatever, and make more and more and more, gather more, you will be happy or. I dunno, just this idea that like nothing we ever do is good enough.
[00:11:48] Sam: Like I, it just, it, it's very hard, especially when I'm sure like a lot of people listening, we have perfectionistic tendencies. Um, you know, and we are type A go-getters. Like we're all hard workers. We're [00:12:00] full of really great ideas. Like none of it is about. Sometimes people confuse what I'm saying with like being unambitious or something like that.
[00:12:06] Sam: That's not me. I don't have, I don't have that. So it's not about, it's not about that. But I always say to people, I think that the real shift came when I stopped being so ambitious about outward achievement and like metrics and my business and whatever, and became ambitious about living my life. And so that can look differently to everybody who's listening.
[00:12:25] Sam: Your values and your priorities are going to be so different than mine, and I don't believe anybody's are objectively better than anyone else's. And so if that's about being present with your family, I consider that. I don't know about you. I consider that to be immense wealth. And so I don't
really care how much is in your bank account if you can't be present when you're sitting with your family.
[00:12:44] Sam: When I started my business, I was always sitting around telling my husband to shush. 'cause I had to do one more thing on Instagram or one more post, or one more whatever. And you know, you go through a period where you're hungry and you hustle. And I appreciate that and I do think that's necessary for a period, but I consider it to be like [00:13:00] immense wealth now that I forget where my phone is a lot of times.
[00:13:04] Sam: Yeah.
[00:13:05] Dustin: That's beautiful. I love that. Yeah. So you, you mentioned curiosity kinda outta the gate. You mentioned contentment, A word you didn't say but that I'm, I'm picking up in here too is like creativity. Like you're a very creative person and uh, for some people that might mean art and music, but for some of us that's business and marketing and models and you know, these sort of things like that.
[00:13:25] Dustin: That's where I get a lot of creative juice and, you know, hopefully it does. Result in an amazing income and you're able to make a big impact with that work. But I think that's, that's like, I dunno, to me that's kind of the juice here, the, the Venn diagram of like being able to like, explore your curiosity, be creative, and then find contentment both in the present and the thing you're building toward.
[00:13:45] Dustin: Do you think that's like a fair summary of, of sort of the, the, the soup that you've created with all these life experiences?
[00:13:52] Sam: Yeah, it's such a good point. It's really funny because I've, I've been exploring creativity a lot, and it's funny because I actually wouldn't [00:14:00] have considered myself, I'm really hard on myself, but I would not have considered myself to be a creative person before because I always associated it with what you said.
[00:14:08] Sam: Like, I'm like, I, I can draw a stick. Figure, that's about it. I can't paint, you know? Right. Like, I can't, my husband plays classical guitar. I can't play any instruments. Like I, I feel like I can't do anything. Right. Yeah,
[00:14:19] Dustin: a guitar. I don't know how to play it yet, but I will. Um, yeah. But yeah, no, I totally relate to this.
[00:14:24] Sam: Yeah, well next time he comes to wash you, he'll uh, you know, he went there, I told you so next time he'll come and play with you.
[00:14:30] Sam: But, uh, yeah, so I, I, that's how I felt. And then I do think it's been helpful to, first of all broaden the definition, but I think for the purposes of our conversation, this is actually really relevant to what's helped me to create more happiness in my life, let alone like more contentment in my business, is that, is I tapped into creativity that didn't have anything to do with my business.
[00:14:50] Sam: So that was kind of the first phase I started doing things. And then even with things like I love to write in my business, my newsletter is, is probably my biggest audience. And so [00:15:00] I really love to write for them and, and I enjoy that and it's great. Every time I send an email, I get like a zillion replies and people are telling me their life story and they really connect with what I write every week, and that's great.
[00:15:11] Sam: But this summer I started write, I took a writing class and I started writing a bunch of stuff that I write in a notebook and nobody ever sees it. And so I really started training myself to get out of this habit. Like, like a circus monkey like was performing for everybody else all the time because that's a dangerous path to go down.
[00:15:28] Dustin: Yeah, man, I love this so. Sort of creative paradox, I guess, like, you know, crafting Commerce is a conference for quote unquote creators. Uh, and so, you know, I felt a little outta place there in the past sometimes where I'm like, eh, I don't really, I'm not that creative. Um, where this came to head to a head for me was actually last year when I was sort of in this fast trajectory from six to seven figures in this business.
[00:15:52] Dustin: I hit this period where I, I thought in the moment it was like burnout, and I'm like. I'm kind of like, Hey, I did it. You know, I hit seven figures and [00:16:00] it's kinda like, and now what? That was sort of my, my feeling and it really took me with some coaching and some help. To sort of go back in and be like, oh no.
[00:16:08] Dustin: Actually the thing I'm experiencing right now is I don't feel creative anymore. 'cause I like did the thing I've been trying to work so hard to figure out. I figured it out. Uh, so then I just needed to sort of recalibrate and like you said, do creative things outside of work, but also even change for me the model that I was pursuing so that I could be creative again.
[00:16:26] Dustin: Right? And like, take on new challenges of things like leadership and, um, growth and things that I, things that I sort of. Thrown, but I'm not interested in that. I just want to be, um, a seven figure solopreneur. Right. So I think identity and creativity definitely go hand in hand, um, in this discussion. So I know what the audience wants and they want to hear the business model, and I, I definitely wanna do that.
[00:16:48] Dustin: And then we're also gonna talk more about. Your quote unquote boring expertise around, uh, legal stuff and what we need to know for legal stuff, you know, to grow our six and seven figure businesses. But [00:17:00] yeah, like to the extent that you want to open up and be transparent about your own business, you mentioned you love marketing and you get a lot of, um, joy out of the work you do, even if it's like you've totally mastered the subject.
[00:17:14] Dustin: Um, so tell us. About your business? Like what, what makes money now? Like what, what is the core of your business? How do you do marketing? This is one of the things when we first started talking, I was completely fascinated with because it's extremely simple and it gives you a lot of freedom to do other things, like write a book, speak, uh, apparently write in your private journal.
[00:17:33] Dustin: Um, you know, maybe, uh, try to learn guitar from your husband. But yeah. So tell us, tell us about your business for everyone who's curious about your model.
[00:17:40] Sam: Yeah, so my motto is to keep things simple. I've done that since day one, and you find things that work and you just keep hammering away. So you're gonna hear about that a lot as I'm explaining this. But I have only ever sold two things for the last eight years, uh, essentially in like two different buckets of [00:18:00] things.
[00:18:00] Sam: So the one is I sell. Individual, a la carte legal templates, like downloadable contracts and website policies that are like downloadable, fill in the blank style. And then about six months to a year into my business, I realized people needed a whole bunch of those templates. And so I was first just thinking of a more affordable way to package that.
[00:18:20] Sam: Like, oh, do I offer a discount, like a bulk rate or something like this, or. Is there something else that everybody was missing? So I started offering these free, um, discovery calls and this, these were these calls just to
allow people to call and figure out which template or templates they needed, because a lot of people were having problem with like self-selection.
[00:18:40] Sam: And I was not giving any advice. There was like no coaching on this or whatever. It was literally just to like, tell me your problem, I'll tell you which ones you need. And that was it. Um, and I did 1200 of these calls and when I did these people were booking them like crazy. I mean, that was the bulk of my job at the time 'cause I had the templates set up and so it was [00:19:00] like I would have the call, send somebody, the link.
[00:19:02] Sam: People mostly bought. It was like almost a hundred percent conversion rate. And so it was very simple and it was like making pretty good money. It's probably how I got up to like my first 10 K months or something like that, consistently. And so the, the accidentally smart thing that I did during these calls was that I kept notes.
[00:19:21] Sam: Uh, and so I would take notes on what people were saying was their problem, but. I mean, you can't have 1200 calls and not start to notice patterns unless you're not paying attention. And so I, I really started to notice people were asking me the same questions over and over again, and I would say to my husband, Ryan, like, oh, these calls are so annoying because I could just record myself and just play it on speakerphone and walk away.
[00:19:43] Sam: And it was literally as it was leaving my mouth, I realized. Wait a minute, that's a course, right? That's, and especially that time, 20 16 17, that was what was most popular. And so I thought, why not package together some video trainings that are answering all of these burning questions. I now know 1200 [00:20:00] people had, um, plus give the package of legal templates, so it makes it, uh, more discounted and I'm gonna create this digital product called the Ultimate Bundle.
[00:20:08] Sam: It's not a course, I'm very adamant. It's not a course, it's a package of, of videos that are like on demand when you need them. When you have a legal question. You get support from me inside a private community, and you get the package of, uh, now 14 legal templates. And I started selling that at first I sell two a month, uh, which is about $4,000 a month.
[00:20:28] Sam: So now I was adding $4,000 a month to my $10,000 a month of a la carte templates. Then I started selling five a month and I thought, I was like, call it in. I'm done. This is amazing. I can't believe five, five a month is $10,000. I was like, this is incredible. Five turned into 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, and it just kept going.
[00:20:48] Sam: So the ultimate bundle is a six figure a month product alone. Um, it's very easy to sell, to be honest. Uh, it has really good value. People love it. We now have, uh, 4,500, [00:21:00] over 4,500 members in it. Um. And so that's, I, I, that really has become my baby. It's kind of become my primary job between taking care of the customers and then just pipelining people into it.
[00:21:13] Sam: Um, and that also runs very simply. It's just Evergreen webinar that I created in 2019. It's the same title, the same webinar, except I've refiled it just to update the branding essentially. Um, and obviously I keep the email sequence updated, um, with the times, but, uh, that's really it. It's, I, I, you know, my, my customers know what I always say is, all roads lead to the email list.
[00:21:36] Sam: So every single piece of content I create my deal with myself is this has to go somewhere. So if I'm gonna create for Instagram or my own podcast on your terms or something like this. The call to action is usually go watch this free legal workshop I have called Five Steps to Legally Protect and Grow Your Online Business.
[00:21:53] Sam: They watch that. They get the sequence, they typically buy the bundle, and that's that. That's really it.
[00:21:59] Dustin: [00:22:00] That's so awesome. So, um,
[00:22:02] Sam: Yeah.
[00:22:03] Dustin: you, you started to, um, kind of talk about some of the sources of traffic. So the offer is extremely simple. Uh, do you still sell the a la carte templates too?
[00:22:14] Sam: Yes.
[00:22:14] Dustin: So, so basically people can buy individual templates for their legal needs, for their online business. Or the preferred path is get the ultimate bundle, you get the 14 templates you need, you get asynchronous support, um, through a private community with Sam, uh, 4,500 people that have done that at approximately, you know, 2K.
[00:22:31] Dustin: Each people can do their own math, so that's amazing. So then I think the next que and you've got the Conversion Mechanism, which is an automated webinar that is basically. The best version of the training you kept
doing on repeat after 1200 discovery calls. So I think the final piece of the puzzle here is the traffic.
[00:22:48] Dustin: So how do you get people, uh, to get on the email list to then send them to the webinar to then buy the $2,000 Ultimate Bundle?
[00:22:58] Sam: Yeah, so I can break it [00:23:00] down in organic and pay it. So on the organic side, uh, like I said, every piece of content I create for my, my primary platforms, uh, in terms of social media or Instagram, and then I have my podcast on your terms. So for those, it's always like my commercial for the podcast goes to my legal workshop.
[00:23:17] Sam: Any piece of content I have on Instagram, for example, if it's not going directly to the workshop, it's going to some other smaller freebie because I've started to build out kinda my freebie network where I've have like a checklist or a guide, but then that email sequence is call to action, is to go watch the workshop.
[00:23:34] Sam: So even if you see me pitching to that, it's everyone's all ultimately ending up there. So. That's pretty much what I do on the organic side. Up until about a year ago, I focused a lot more on SEO. I mean, I still make sure everything going on to the site is, is very optimized as much as possible, but like it's just gone down and down and down over the last year as everyone knows.
[00:23:53] Dustin: Yeah.
[00:23:54] Sam: Um, but that's, yeah. With ai, especially the AI summaries and with what I do, I'm sure that's [00:24:00] killing me because people are probably googling questions to things, getting the answer and bouncing. So, um, but that is, that is a big part of my story of, of how I got so much traffic and of course I'm utilizing all the other, like, we're reposting on Pinterest and threads and substack and like we're posting everywhere just to, to try.
[00:24:18] Sam: Um, so that's, that's pretty much my organic strategy. Uh, I do a lot of podcast guesting obviously,
[00:24:23] Dustin: You mentioned 50 podcasting appearances in support of the book launch, and so podcast guessing is, is part of your strategy it sounds like too.
[00:24:30] Sam: Yes. That's always been a big part of my strategy. Uh, even outside. I just, I've never had this volume before. It's obviously increased, um, both since my book came out in April. And also since I spoke at Craft and Commerce, I've gotten a lot of invites. Um, and then I've landed a couple of really big podcasts, which then have led to some other big podcasts.
[00:24:47] Sam: So that keeps kind of going. Um. So we have that. And then I also teach trainings inside, inside of people's programs. So a lot of coaches will bring me in to talk in front of their mastermind group or to talk inside like a [00:25:00] course and do an evergreen training. And then those have brought me consistent leads over time too.
[00:25:04] Sam: So that's probably the bulk of my organic strategy. On the paid side, I started, uh, Facebook ads in 2020 at the exact right time. It was like right before COVID. It was a couple of months, maybe, maybe even December of 2019. I started and the ads were already going well, but then during COVID everything really exploded.
[00:25:23] Sam: So there's that. I have pulled back though, in terms of, uh, not wanting that to be, like, I'm very conscientious of the fact that I don't want that to be where everything's coming from. And so still I'm very careful to keep track on the stats side of like. Um, making sure that the bulk of my people are still coming in organically and not through paid ads.
[00:25:45] Sam: Um, I started, uh, two years ago running twice a year, my same exact webinar, so literally the same exact webinar that runs Evergreen. I run it live twice a year, usually in February and September, October, so I have one coming up soon, but they, [00:26:00] I run that and we have anywhere from about three to 5,000 people sign up for that, and 60% of the signups come from my organic traffic.
[00:26:07] Dustin: That's awesome. Do you do any affiliates with those live events or with the recorded.
[00:26:12] Sam: Yeah, we do. I have an affiliate program in general. I've kept it like pretty chill to be honest. It's, it's never been a big part of my strategy. A lot of people reach out to me and ask, and we say, sure, here's the link, and they can sign up for it. A lot of our customers become affiliates. Um, I, this last two live launches, I've personally reached out to what we've called like a VIP affiliates list of a small group of people who I knew people like you, who I would just reach out to and say, Hey, do you wanna do this?
[00:26:37] Sam: This is what it would be. Here's what you could have and just really support them and give them all the assets they need instead of like kind of opening it up to some big, you know, everyone else can still run it. But that's kind of where we, I guess me and the team spend more of our time and effort.
[00:26:51] Dustin: Yeah. That's really, really cool. So, um, yeah, tell us just a little bit about the team, so I know you're. [00:27:00] I, I created a Instagram account because I did a summit earlier this year. Like I have like no social media presence outside of LinkedIn. You're one of like 10 people that I follow on Instagram, so I actually love your content.
[00:27:11] Dustin: Um, and so you've got a pretty robust cadence of Instagram sharing and you said you guys repurpose that into other channels. Yeah. Just give us a snapshot of your, if your, of your team, if you don't mind.
[00:27:22] Sam: Yeah, sure. I think we have a really smart Instagram strategy too, which I'm happy to, uh, to talk about. But my team is small but mighty. Um, so I actually only have one full-time employee, Lindsay, who's my, uh, director of operations. So she does like basically everything and. Um, she's amazing. And then, um, we have Michelle in our team does a lot of more of the marketing assistant side of things and she edits my podcast.
[00:27:45] Sam: And then we have Leanne, who's our customer support person. Uh, we have a tech va like on deck just in case something breaks who we can tap into. But she doesn't have to be called up, uh, Tibet too often, thank goodness. Um, and that's it. Yeah. I have a [00:28:00] Facebook ads. Uh, agency who runs the ads, and then I have a social agency who, uh, post manages the, the Instagram post for the most part.
[00:28:09] Sam: Yeah,
[00:28:09] Dustin: That's awesome. So yeah, please share the Instagram. Maybe I'll like start using Instagram sh share your, uh, smart Instagram strategy if you, if you don't mind, uh, pulling back a little bit on that.
[00:28:19] Sam: Yeah. I'm like, no, stay away. Don't go on Instagram if you don't have to. But I just think like, uh, if I, if I didn't have, I often fantasize about like, what people like that you just, other normal people don't have to be on Instagram. I kind of dream of that, of that day, one day, but
[00:28:33] Dustin: This is the, uh, you know, middle aged, uh, dad thing. So like my, my role on Instagram, my kids share stories and so I like get on there
and see what, you know, see what they're doing since, you know, they're at college and living without me, uh, except for one of them. And then, you know, I scroll it and it feeds me all this like the worst funny dog memes and stupid dad jokes, right?
[00:28:54] Dustin: And I just spam the family chat on dms of like. Just, you know, I'll sit down and find like 10 [00:29:00] ridiculous things and share it, and then they all groan and tell me I'm a loser. Um, that's my Instagram strategy. It's not really good for business. But, uh, share your Instagram strategy for actually driving these amazing, like evergreen sales that you've got.
[00:29:11] Sam: Yeah, I like, I like your strategy better, but, um, my mine, uh, so mine starts with this mindset that like, if I'm going to be here, it's going to support my business. And so that's, that's really how I think about it. I, I have always taken the like. Attitude with Instagram in particular, uh, that it's a bonus.
[00:29:33] Sam: They don't owe me anything. And so I'm there to try it out, see how it goes. And so I think all roads lead to the email list. So if I'm gonna post here, something's gonna go to my email list. But I think what people don't realize is how simple the content you create can be there. So like for example, I take B-roll pretty much in my every day when I'm out and about.
[00:29:52] Sam: If I'm doing something, having coffee, making food, I just take B-roll on my phone and I save it to a folder. So I always have [00:30:00] content, quote unquote content ready to go. I'm never curating or, or like having to create something in real time. But even something as simple lately as taking audio from my podcast, from a podcast episode I've done and oh, doing what we call be the B-roll.
[00:30:15] Sam: Overlay and just putting my audio over, running B roll, that's of me doing something probably just like being on my computer or whatever they do really, really well. And then, um, what's been surprising to me. A strategy I switched up last year. Was that, like in those types of videos, I always used to say like, comment, you know, episode two 50 for, and I'll send you a link to this, right?
[00:30:39] Sam: But we started using ManyChat for, uh, automating our dms. And what we've done instead is like you, it'll still do that, but then it'll say. Hey, by the way, did you know that I write a free weekly newsletter called Sam sbar that 50,000 of your online business peers get every week to learn legal tips and marketing advice that actually works?
[00:30:57] Sam: Would you like it? Tap here. And they tap [00:31:00] there. And then it says, great. What's your name? And then you put Dustin. It's like, great, Dustin, what's your email? And it's, uh, integrated with Kit. So it, nobody even has to leave Instagram. It's just adding them to my email list through this. DM conversation. I've even started doing that with things like podcast, um, playlists.
[00:31:18] Sam: So I took groupings of my podcast episodes that were about a certain topic, named it something, and then when I create a piece of content on Instagram, like let's say it's about money, I'll be like, if you wanna learn about
small business taxes and business expenses for online business owners, comment, money, playlist, and I'll send you a link.
[00:31:36] Sam: When it sends them the link, it says, what's your email? I'll email you the link. And they do that and it adds them to my list. So this has become a huge email list builder for me in like a very sneaky but also low lift way. Yeah, it's not a lot. It's not a lot of content curation, I think.
[00:31:53] Dustin: LinkedIn needs to let ManyChat onto their [00:31:55] Sam: I know.
[00:31:56] Dustin: because it's so much harder to do what you just [00:32:00] described, because you have to do it all manually on, uh, on LinkedIn.
[00:32:02] Sam: they will. Yeah.
[00:32:03] Dustin: a, that's a really cool strategy. And, and like, what I, my big takeaway from this chapter of, of what we're talking about is.
[00:32:10] Dustin: Extremely simple offer, extremely simple conversion mechanism that just runs on repeat. All roads lead to the email list to get people into that, um, quote unquote funnel, but into that flow to get to the webinar, um, to get to the main product. And then even your marketing strategy is really simple. I mean, you do have Instagram as a primary channel because.
[00:32:30] Dustin: It sounds like you enjoy that, but even there, you're very intentional. It's like, Hey, I'm just gonna capture what I'm already doing, and then we'll make that into marketing assets. And then you've got this technology with ManyChat to really automate all this stuff that gets 'em onto your email list at Kit.
[00:32:43] Dustin: So 50,000 person email list from that plus. Um, so that part, I don't really do that much, but one of the things we always tell people is like, you can totally build a seven figure business. With your expertise through podcast guesting, uh, guest training in other people's communities, which is something that you do a ton of.
[00:32:59] Dustin: Uh, and then, [00:33:00] you know, if you have your own podcast, because that's something you want, that's also an amazing channel to deepen relationships, connect with other people in your market, find new partners that might wanna be affiliates and things like that. So, I mean, you're like running our playbook to a t and then you add on this really smart Instagram strategy sort of on top of it.
[00:33:16] Dustin: Um, and you know. Well beyond seven figures, uh, doing that and keeping it simple. So thank you so much for sharing all of that. Um. I think for the, the next part here because how do I have, you know, Sam, uh, on
here without talking about some legal stuff. Uh, so I would love sort of your, your snapshot version.
[00:33:34] Dustin: You know, people should definitely go like through the full webinar training if they want to go deeper with this, but sort of the teaser version of someone, say they have a six figure business, they're growing, uh, they're developing some, some content, some ip, some courses, some programs, and they're like, Hey, I'm kind of like.
[00:33:50] Dustin: It's growing pretty well. Um, and I'm pretty clueless. I've done nothing as far as a legal, uh, protection or legal, um, structure or anything like that. Like [00:34:00] what are the basic things anyone listening to this type of podcast should totally have in place from a legal standpoint? Yeah.
[00:34:06] Sam: Yeah, so first things first. We always want to make sure that you have an LLC in place so that you're not personally liable for what I. Ever's happening in your business at, at any stage. Um, so that's really important. And then we want to make sure, I mean, now would be a good time, like as you're leveling up, I always say I just sent a, a email to my email list today saying like, even using the falls an excuse to be like, okay, now's the time to level up my contracts.
[00:34:30] Sam: Or go back and edit them, check that they're okay. So. Uh, you know, making sure that you have the contracts that are, like if you're, if you're going to this next level, whether it's multi six figures or seven figures, you can't
afford to rely on those like shoddy copy and pasted things that you've been relying on to this point.
[00:34:48] Sam: Like, it's great that they've gotten you this far, but it's time to go. So that would be the second thing I do. And the third thing is to make sure you have business insurance. Um, now. Good time to check. Not only that you have it, but you have the [00:35:00] right kind that, you know, I, if you're one of
my customers, you know, I always say like, you better know what your deductible is if I ask you.
[00:35:06] Sam: 'cause most people will be like, I, I don't know. And had one guy find out that it was $50,000, it was like, well. Wanna pay $50,000 if you got su? Probably not. So, uh, yeah, so that's a good thing to, it's just like kind of, I don't know, thinking of it like a spring cleanup, like you're getting ready to go to this next level.
[00:35:23] Sam: You really have to like get your stuff in order. It's like how I clean my desk, like right before I'm about to do a big project. Like I just take everything on my desk, like clean, I organize, and there's something about that, like reorganization. So now now's a good time to get that done, but. I think it's, it's probably also worth mentioning that like as you enter into this new era, there also are some things that come along with being a bigger business owner.
[00:35:48] Sam: Whether it's because you're making more money or you have larger audience, you have more eyeballs on you. There are some legal things that kind of come along with that as well.
[00:35:57] Dustin: So LLC is like. [00:36:00] Foundation, number one. Um, having solid contracts that are professionally, um, created and reviewed, and then insurance. So yeah, like the boring of the boring. But if you don't have one of these things and you get hammered, you're gonna like regret for the rest of your life that you didn't, uh, take some time and effort to, you know, rightsize things with the business.
[00:36:20] Dustin: So it's like, hey, you're, you're past proof of concept, you're making some kind of money. Um. The last thing I would love to get just a, a quick thought on is like intellectual property, like ip. So you've got like a framework, you wrote a book, or you're doing a group coaching program and you've got this thing that has a lot of value.
[00:36:37] Dustin: Um, how do you in a basic sense, protect that? Yeah.
[00:36:42] Sam: Yeah. So in our industry, everybody always thinks of trademarks first. It's so interesting, like people are always the most freaked out about trademarks. But what I think you should be like quote unquote freaked out about, I'll never tell anybody be freaked out about anything 'cause I don't lead with fear.
[00:36:57] Sam: It's like not my thing. But the thing I think you should be more [00:37:00] aware of is actually your content, your intellectual property related to your content for your products and services. So. What, yes, it's important to, like, we can talk about trademarking names and like things like that, but if you have a course, for example, like what I created with the Ultimate Bundle, and it was pretty quickly that I was like, oh, this is gonna be a thing.
[00:37:21] Sam: Like this thing is, is going, people are buying it, people are now referring people to it. Like, okay, it's, we've gone from like idea to like actual solid concept here. Um. All of the content inside of that course was sent off to the US Copyright Office to be registered. I'm talking every video, every piece of audio, every PDF, every handout, every whatever it is that you've gotten there.
[00:37:45] Sam: Um, it's actually a lot easier than what it sounds like. It, it might sound overwhelming. I have, uh, over 37 videos in the bundle, and then all of the legal templates and all that. It's actually very easy and you can do this yourself on the US Copyright Office's website, um, [00:38:00] because you actually batch upload by, uh, like media type.
[00:38:04] Sam: So if you had a bunch of audio files or you had a bunch of video files or a bunch of PDFs, you could do the, like batch uploading that way. So it's actually pretty easy. It's $50 per application, a lot cheaper. Um, usually a 30 day turnaround time for approval, so it's a lot faster as well. Um, but that. Is what you're going to need to actually enforce it.
[00:38:24] Sam: If somebody steals your paid products, paid courses and stuff like that, um, you can do this obviously with digital products like any, any of that kinda stuff. Um, private podcast people have told me about doing this for things that are paid, right? Any of that. Um, this is really important because a lot of people wait until somebody actually steals it from them and then.
[00:38:45] Sam: They're very sad to find out that there's really nothing they can do about it. Um, to add insult to injury, if you don't have what we call terms of use at checkout, like when you sell a co, a course or a digital product, um, that forces someone to agree [00:39:00] to the fact they're not able to distribute and
share and reproduce and you know that this is a limited license for their personal use and all this.
[00:39:07] Sam: Legal mumbo jumbo. It's like having that plus having registered this stuff is like a huge one-two punch because now the person has agreed to it and then the thing that they've stolen is now legally protected. So it's, it's kind of like a very fast end of conversation when you have to reach out to that person and it's like this thing is registered, you violated it, you agreed to the terms.
[00:39:29] Sam: It says you wouldn't violate it when you. Purchased my course to be inspired by it, and now we can just like bring down the hammer because it, it's a very easy way to deal with it.
[00:39:40] Dustin: Okay, well that's super, super insightful. Um, terms of use, uh. I was aware of, uh, and don't go steal my stuff, but I wasn't as, I was not aware of like uploading the stuff to the US copyright office and making that like an officially. Copy, copyright or registered, um, [00:40:00] intellectual property of a specific owner so that if it gets shows up in the wild and someone starts repurposing it, you can say, I've got the legal protection.
[00:40:08] Dustin: That's not, that's different than a trademark, which trademark is like a phrase or a name or whatever. And I guess we don't have to get into all that, like that's cool. But it sounds like actually the both easier and more important part is to actually register the content itself. Is that true?
[00:40:23] Sam: Yeah, I mean, the way that I think about this is like what? What really makes me money out of my product? It's the product itself. Yes, the name is helpful for brand recognition, and I've become known for the ultimate bundle, and my name is synonymous with this. I'm like, that's great, but it's really what's inside of that thing that's.
[00:40:41] Sam: What is so good that's making it money. And so that's kind of the way I think about it. I also trademark the name Ultimate Bundle, so yeah, I have both, but I just think in our industry it's so lopsided. People are always so worried about protecting the name 'cause they're so freaked out. Someone else is
gonna create a product with that name.
[00:40:58] Sam: I'm like, what about somebody creating a [00:41:00] product, but your actual product in it? That's, that's really the problem to me. Yeah.
[00:41:05] Dustin: Then sidebar, I guess there should be, I'm sure there's some value also in owning the requisite domain name. Just sort of, sort of like owning the real estate that the name is built on. So, I mean, that's another, it's not a legal
protection I guess, but that is another sort of protection against someone trying to steal your, steal your name and your protocols and stuff like that.
[00:41:24] Sam: Yeah, I'm, the team makes fun of me. 'cause I'm like a domain name queen. I think I own 200 domain names. 'cause every time I create something I'm like, buy all of the domain names that are anywhere related to this. Yeah. And so we buy, but again, that is not, you're right, that's not a legal thing. A lot of people will think that because they own the domain that makes them own the name or something.
[00:41:43] Sam: It's not, it's not related. Um, but helpful for branding purposes. I've also done it as a little bit of a business strategy 'cause I've sold some of them, so some of them can become valuable. You can't do what's called cybersquatting. You can't buy a target with like two T's and then try to sell it to Target for a million dollars.
[00:41:58] Sam: That's called [00:42:00] Cybersquatting.
[00:42:01] Dustin: That's
[00:42:01] Sam: Some guy tried that with Google, with like five O'S or something. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:42:06] Dustin: Well, this has been amazing, uh, as expected. So I love your story. I love, I just love everything about your business model and just how authentic you are and how open you are in sharing. Um. There's a phrase that I use a lot. It's actually the theme of a retreat I'm hosting next week as we record. This is simplicity scales, and I think you're like a perfect example of the fact that things don't have to be complicated.
[00:42:28] Dustin: They're better if they're not, and having a simple offer, simple, um, marketing system, simple conversion mechanism. That you can actually scale that doesn't drive you crazy or require a huge team is awesome. And I think that's what everyone listening to this podcast will definitely want. So thank you for all of that.
[00:42:44] Dustin: Uh, definitely people should go get, when I start my business, I'll be happy. The book, uh, and then the podcast on your terms with. Sam Vander Ween. And then, um, I know you have, at the time that this is
gonna get published, you're gonna have a live version of [00:43:00] your workshop. So if anyone's like, oh man, I have, uh, none or only a few of these things that, that she talked about, and you wanna get straight from the source here, a lot better understanding of this stuff and be able to be invited over into getting the legal protection you need, feel free to talk about the workshop and then we can tell people, of course, how to get on your newsletter.
[00:43:18] Sam: Yeah, so if you want to come hang with me. For my live legal workshop. Um, when I, when, not when I start my business. That's not it. about I'm so used to my book these days. Um, five Steps to Legally Protect and Grow Your Online Business. I'm hosting a free live workshop on Monday, October
20th. If you can't make it live, just make sure you sign up anyway 'cause that's how you get the replay.
[00:43:41] Sam: Um, so come and hang out with us even if you just wanna see how it's done, uh, last year, just for, for everyone to have an idea. I held it in. February and in four days I generated $340,000. So it does pretty good. And so even if you wanna come see that. Come see that.
[00:43:58] Dustin: I love that. Yeah. The [00:44:00] idea of, you know, watching the Master at Work, you know, a lot of us, you know, kind of tuned in the HORMO launch, uh, that that happened recently and it's like, yeah, I got a book, whatever, but like, I'm mostly here just to see how this works. And so, uh, see how it works. See how Sam is doing super well with a simple.
[00:44:14] Dustin: Business that's kind of based on boring ideas. Uh, and I say that with a lot of love and affection for the work that you do. Um, so go to the live workshop October 20th, and then, you know, if you're listening to this past that date, or, uh, you just aren't necessarily wanting to go deep on the legal training, but you want to be in proximity to Sam and her thoughts and her work like, which I highly recommend, what's the best way for someone on an evergreen basis to plug into your world?
[00:44:38] Sam: Yeah, come sign up for my free weekly newsletter, Sam Sidebar. It's where I share, uh, weekly legal tips, but mostly honestly marketing advice. Today's was all about a checklist for a digital cleanup for the fall. Last week we talked about, um, security and privacy online and how to grow an online business while still staying secure.
[00:44:56] Sam: So, uh, we talked about all kinds of interesting things there. So [00:45:00] come hang out there.
[00:45:01] Dustin: And that's Sam vander wheeland.com is home base for everything. And if you do, sam vander wheeland.com/easy. Emails, like that's the direct link to the newsletter. But if you just go to sam vander ween.com, you'll see the newsletter, um, prominently featured, right?
[00:45:16] Sam: Yes, it's all over the place, don't worry. Yeah.
[00:45:19] Dustin: missing it. All roads lead to the email. So if you wanna go to Instagram or whatever, uh, all these are good places to go, but definitely get on Sam's email list, attend her, her live workshop if you get that opportunity. Otherwise, go to the evergreen version. I highly endorsed everything about Sam, including her, her legal work.
[00:45:36] Dustin: Uh, I'll be tuning in as well because I think there's always more that we could do, uh, you know, to build our business on our terms and protect it. 'cause it's hard work and, uh, you deserve to, uh, you have protection there. So, Sam, thanks for, uh, being a friend. Thanks for spending so much time, uh, with me in Boise.
[00:45:51] Dustin: I hope we get to do that again next year. And thanks for being a guest here on the podcast.
[00:45:55] Sam: Thank you so much for having me.