Guest Appearances: Should You Ever Pay to Play?

Dustin: [00:00:00] Should you pay to be a guest on someone else's podcast? This is a question I think in my several years of being in this space has become more and more frequently asked. Like it's become the, probably the top FAQ. It's something that comes up multiple times a week inside and outside of our community. I experience it as.
An entrepreneur and, and how people approach me about potentially being a guest on their show. And I think it's a really rich topic to unpack here on the seven figure lead podcast. So I am excited to dive in, give my perspective, uh, my opinion on this. And I always like to start by just being really clear, kind of burying the lead a bit and then let you know my thoughts.
And then I like to unpack the logic and the, um, the proof behind my opinions. My opinion is. Probably not right. Like, should you pay to be on a podcast as a guest? Probably not. Okay. So I'm again, not an [00:01:00] absolutist. I did a, another FAQ episode recently talking about booking agencies and talked about, you know, the exceptions to the rule, but as a rule, If you are an entrepreneur looking to grow your business and you're looking at podcast guesting as a marketing channel, obviously, I think that's a wonderful idea.
I built my whole e commerce business that way, and I built another seven figure business here with seven figure leap and the coaching that we do through primarily podcast guesting. I can tell you that I've been on roughly 75 shows. I think at this point, maybe 80, uh, I've paid. 0 to ever be on any show.
And that's not to say it's wrong or immoral. Um, I feel strongly that any podcast host has the absolute right to say, Hey, we have an appearance fee and that's how part of how we monetize our own efforts. And that's totally. Cool. Uh, that's totally, you know, obviously in their domain and part of what they need to choose as a business practice.
I am [00:02:00] telling you as my dear listener and someone who is looking to strategically guest on shows to grow your own business, that that's almost never a good idea. Okay. And so this is a changing landscape. I've had a conversation not too long ago with Alex Sanfilippo. Some of you guys may be familiar with Alex.
He runs a really cool company called Podmatch. And so he has a very. Uh, front row seat, I guess in one way to say it to the industry and kind of trends and
something they actually changed in their software is you now have to declare if you're a host, whether you charge people to be a guest, because it was just coming up more and more and more where people are like, Hey, I got accepted as a guest.
And then I, you know, submitted my stuff and I was excited for the interview. And all of a sudden it's like, Hey, you. Send this 500 bucks and then we'll actually record and, and it was starting to sound deceitful, right? And so I think again, there's there's right and wrong ways to do things in general, but I'm purely speaking as someone who advocates for guests and who works with a lot of entrepreneurs to use podcast guesting as a marketing [00:03:00] channel and So part of the reason I feel so passionately about this and why I say I don't think it's a good idea Has to do with the fact that the number one value in podcasting in the community and in podcast guesting specifically is actually relationship building.
Okay, like I'm a huge advocate that if you do podcast guesting the right way, and this is how we teach it through our five P framework, it is a win, win, win relationship. It's the triple win, right? And so what's the triple win? Uh, yes, it is a win for you as the guest. You get exposure to your target market.
Uh, you get to showcase your expertise. You get to hopefully generate, you know, email leads and get sales. If you do it the right way, there's obviously I'm a huge advocate and I teach people this as a, as a major marketing strategy. So you do get a win, but you shouldn't be the only one that wins. Who else wins?
The second win is for the host, right? The host should be excited to have you on because you add a new perspective. You're teaching a new thing. You have [00:04:00] new stories. You have a new personality. It's a new connection for them. Like the host should be like, heck yeah. Like I love having Dustin as a guest. I'm so grateful that Dustin spent time with me as a guest on my show.
Okay. So the host should win. And one of the ways the host wins is actually the third win. And that's the audience. Okay. Ultimately the audience should be the biggest beneficiary of this host guest relationship because the host wants to serve their audience. Cause that's how they grow, right? And if the audience loves them and leaves reviews and tells their friends, it grows the show.
And so you can kind of see it. It's, it's a virtuous cycle. Guest host, audience, guest host, audience, all three win by serving each other. Right? Uh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't quite, uh, say it's like a holy trinity, but it's kind of the same concept, right? There's these three parties, host, guest, audience. And if everyone's doing
their part, the audience supports the guest by Downloading their thing, emailing or getting on their email newsletter, maybe [00:05:00] buying their service.
If it's a great fit, uh, the guest is serving the audience by teaching them and giving them a new perspective, a new insight, a new inspiration, and the host is kind of watching this relationship between the guest and the audience and thinking, this is amazing. Like. I'm winning because I've now got a new relationship with an amazing guest and all their network.
And now my audience has served, you can kind of see it's this very virtuous cycle, but that only works if you do it the right way. And that is approaching it through a service attitude, right? Like, so the host is serving the guest and the audience. The audience is serving the guest and the host in a sense, my commerce and my attention and downloads.
And of course the guests. When we teach guests, it's like your role here is to serve that audience with abandoned, make the host look great, build a relationship with the host, leave them a review, promote their stuff. Like this is a win, win, win relationship. So is there money involved in that? Yes.
Indirectly. There is money involved in that because we're growing businesses, [00:06:00] right? We want the host to actually make more money and have a better relationship. Better show and do more of what they want to do. We want the, the audience to quote unquote, make money. It depends on what transformation we provide that could actually be money if we're teaching business practices, but let's say you're a health coach.
We want the audience to have a richer health experience. If you're a marriage coach, we want the audience to have a richer. Uh, relationship and marital experience. And so it may not actually be dollars and cents, but there's an exchange of value, right? And then again, as the guests, we want to grow our business.
That's why we're doing this. Right. And so there is an, uh, an implied and very real monetary or really a value exchange between these three parties. But where it can get a bit bastardized is when actual dollars and cents enter the equation. Okay. Outside of the, uh, the win, win, win relationship. Okay. And so that's, that's one of the reasons kind of like, it's not a moral argument at all, but sort of, um, philosophically, I guess you could say, [00:07:00] like, I feel like, Hey, guest, I think you would be an amazing fit for my audience.
If you pay me 500, right? Uh, if you don't pay me 500, I don't think you're a good fit for audience. I think there's some weirdness there, uh, because I think those hosts will tend to cater to guests who will spend the fee to come on and not so much worry about whether they're actually providing a win, win, win relationship.
I think that, that, you know, that, that enters into the equation. And I think if you're a guest. Again, you're paying the play and, you know, and, and if you're paying the play, I think it can very much change the dynamic of how you show up because it's like, wow, I got to like earn my money back. I got to like, it becomes more of a.
A, uh, a sales, the sort of vibe because of the way the relationship is, um, is created from the start. So that's sort of a philosophical look at this, right? I think many hosts, this is, I think this is a good litmus test. If you're a host and you're like, yeah, I charge, you know, 500 bucks or whatever for people to be on my [00:08:00] show.
Would you want your audience to know that? I think that's a great question to wrestle. Like if my audience knew that I only let people on to pay me, uh, would I feel good about that? Cause I think the audience would expect that people come on because you think they're really awesome and that they're a great value.
And if you're discounting people who are an amazing value and have a great story and teaching, but aren't willing to pay a fee and you're accepting people on who maybe aren't as good because they will pay the fee. Maybe the audience isn't getting served the best way. So there's a, there's some philosophical things there, but I like to just come bring this back down to kind of brass tacks and think really practically.
So if you're a guest and you're, you know, heading over and you're, you're, you're connecting with this host and you're like, I have an amazing. Proposal for you. I think I can really serve your audience and here's what I want to do. And they say, sounds good. Send me a check and then we'll talk or sounds good.
Um, you're good enough, but you got to send us a [00:09:00] check for, you know, I, my experience in the industry shifting, there's becoming more and more of this. This is, this is becoming much more of a frequent. Um, interaction of like, yeah, there's an appearance fee in my experience. And maybe I'll, you know, do a different episode in a year that tells you my tune has changed.
But in my experience in working on my own guesting and with hundreds of clients at this point, I've yet to find someone who charged a fee purely for a podcast appearance, that that guest had a good experience and actually got an outcome on the other side. Okay. So that's the practical side of this. It's like, it's not morally wrong.
The host can, you know, they can charge money if they want, but in my experience, and I've had more experience than most people, I think in this, in this arena, in the work that I do every day, it almost never works out. And I think that that has a lot to do with the dynamics that I talked about earlier. Uh, and so, you know, if I, if, if I, cause I'm a, you know, I'm a.[00:10:00]
A capitalist. I'm an entrepreneur. If you could show me, Hey, this show you pay them 500 and then like you make 5, 000. Like I wouldn't have a problem with that. Like, you know, whatever, as long as they're disclosing it, which is a whole FTC thing. And, um, it just as a quick sidebar, this is becoming a real hot topic, uh, through regulation too.
So, uh, I mentioned earlier, would you want your audience to know, well, uh, I don't want to go too far down this tangent, but I think we can all relate to like late night infomercials where it's like, this is a sponsored program. It was a paid advertisement for blah, blah, blah. Like. That is going to become the norm, or you're going to get hammered by the FTC.
Uh, at least in the articles that I've been seeing in the industry, like this is not like consider fair play for the host to charge the guest and not tell the audience, because it's really considered a sponsored episode. And I think that that gets back to this core sort of like dynamic of what changes when there's money exchanged upfront.
Anyway, I think that's sort of like the regulatory reality of what's coming out of this [00:11:00] movement towards pay to play. Um, And so I think it, it taints things. And so, um, again, if, if you, if you could show me the ROI is there when people do pay and it's well worth it, I think, um, I, you know, I would take a much, I'd be much more open to this.
The reality is I've seen that happen zero times. Like people pay an appearance fee. They always feel burned. It never works out. I'm not speaking at absolutes cause this is my reality so far, so far it hasn't worked out. Um, and so, and I think that has to do with the fact that a show that's charging you.
It's probably, um, you know, maybe not like the most successful show. Like they're, they're going to tell you, Hey, there's an appearance for you because we're so darn popular. We can just, you know, fending off amazing guests left and right. We've got to have this filter. Right. And we've got these production costs.
Well, a successful show is going to be, uh, Self sustaining, they're going to attract sponsors. They're, you know, they're going to do things to make the show profitable without having to charge you some sort of [00:12:00] appearance fee, in my opinion. And so when this, when this happens, it just doesn't work out. And that's kind of like the practical reality of this.
Um, I'm literally looking right now at, on my other screen at a LinkedIn message I received today. I'm not going to name the podcast, but it is like textbook. Why this sucks. Right? Like, so I got this message, um, from this guy named Sean, as far as I'll take this and it says like, Hey, this is Sean. Would you be interested in applying to come on XYZ podcast?
It's currently the number one ranked podcast on Apple podcasts. This is like, so not true. Okay. It's like, it's not even close. It has like a hundred ratings. It's like a mediocre. It's like a four star rating. And the ironic part is when we start looking at the reviews, about half the reviews are like, this shows a scam.
Uh, I appeared on this show and they charged me. It was like a lot of money as a very high appearance fee. And I got nothing from it. So if you are in this world and you do like, if you're really considering a show, like. [00:13:00] Go check it out, because if you do your own due diligence, uh, people are not quiet when they get screwed over and, and they felt screwed over.
So it was pretty interesting. So, you know, I'm like, Oh, this is interesting. It doesn't say anything about paying a fee. And then they, I didn't respond right away. This actually came in a couple of days ago. And then today they responded and said, Hey, we've had these, they're dropping names of some, some bigger named guests that they've had on who I guarantee they did not charge to be on this show.
And, uh, and it turns out it's like a five minute long podcast too. It's probably clips of these people. It's probably not even interviews. I didn't bother spending the time, but I just said, well, point blank. Are you charging a fee? Question mark response. Yes. And then it's like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the host, you know, Sean, I can also, you know, do a joint venture with you and we've
got this group chat that you'd be added to, they're like starting to pander of like, here's we, you know, maybe this is not as bad as you think.
Um, And I wrote back, I'll pass. I don't pay appearance fees. So that happened. And then literally today in our circle community, where our accelerator members and our alumni and our [00:14:00] mastermind members congregate, someone had been like, and they had approached a podcast. It seemed like a good fit. And they came back with a 400 appearance fee.
And they're basically saying, should I, should I do this? So my general answer is no, but I do love to talk about exceptions. Cause there's always exceptions, right? I've had a few clients who. Encountered this and I, and I say, let's look at what they're actually offering. So if it's generally like pay to play, like it's 500 bucks, it's 300 bucks, a thousand dollars, whatever, um, And it enters the conversation at a weird point where it feels manipulative and then it's a hell.
No. Okay. So if it's like, Oh yeah, I can't wait to have you on fill out our form. Oh, this is gonna be great. Like, you know, go to book and then like you're scheduling the time to book and all of a sudden this fee shows up that no one's told you about. Like, that's a, you run away. Like, that's going to be a, not a good relationship.
Um, now in a few cases where I've said, I think you should do this, it's [00:15:00] been on a very niche podcast and very importantly, it's been part of a larger marketing effort. Okay. So I had a, uh, a client in a craft food niche and he had this opportunity come up and through a conversation that guy's like, Hey, you know, I have a podcast and I'd love to have you on.
It's a very niche podcast. We, we serve a lot of the people that you would consider ideal clients and we'll put you on the podcast. We'll do a YouTube, um, you know, video and we'll email our email list about your lead magnet. Right. And there was, there was like maybe another aspect and it was, you know, a few hundred bucks.
It was. It was reasonable. I'm like, yeah, I think I would do that. Right. It was, it was presented openly. It was not manipulative. It was not a straight up pay to play. It was a marketing package that included a podcast appearance fee. Um, I actually did this once I said, I never paid to be on a podcast, uh, for fire Creek snacks back in the day.
We were part of a larger. Um, kind of giveaway in the outdoor space and again, very upfront. And they said, look, [00:16:00] like, here's what you provide us.
And here's what we provide you. And so it wasn't a money exchange, but we had to give a certain amount of product because it's part of their giveaway. And then if we gave a certain amount of product, we became.
Uh, we kind of entered into this tier of marketing where we did a YouTube video about our product, like they did a review. We were part of the giveaway. I did a podcast interview, uh, and we got sort of like special placement, uh, in, in the physical box that got sent out, like we got, uh, uh, an insert. So in a sense, we kind of paid to be part of that, but that was.
A product exchange. It was upfront part of the package and it was a part of a package. It wasn't like a pay to play podcast appearance fee. So I always like to be really transparent and say. There are exceptions to every rule, but if you've got this far and you're like, I just, you know, about every 10 podcasts that I approach want money and it comes and it feels weird.
And I, it doesn't even seem like a very good podcast. Is this really worth it? The answer is [00:17:00] probably not, probably not. So I would tread very carefully in this arena. Uh, again, maybe we'll do an update later. If you have a strong opinion, maybe you're a podcast host who charges and you have. Uh, a very logical, practical, uh, argument to make the other way.
I'd love to hear it. I'd love to, uh, to learn more from you. And, uh, so reach out to me and let's have that conversation. We can have it here live, uh, on the microphone for everyone to benefit from, but until someone changes my mind, my advice is do not pay podcast appearance fees, uh, be on shows because it's going to be a win win relationship for all involved because the hosts It's like very enthusiastic about having you and that you really want to serve each other and serve that audience and do things the right way, quote unquote, and not because they see you as a schmuck who's willing to give them some money to appear on a show that's not actually going to move your business forward.
So this is cynical Dustin, uh, signing off from this episode of the seven figure lead podcast. If you have other FAQs, [00:18:00] other hot takes that you would like my opinion on based on all the experience I have in this industry, please Uh, shoot me a, shoot me a message, hit me up on LinkedIn and, uh, shoot me a DM there and let me know what's on your mind.
I would love to debate something like this with you, or, or really just do another solo episode and do a deep dive if that's a value. So until next time, uh, this is a seven figure lead podcast, and we are here to serve our guests to get them a
profitable return on their efforts in a win, win, win relationship where everyone walks away feeling better for it.