The Unexpected Strategy That Made ‘The One Thing’ a Bestseller with Jay Papasan

Jay: [00:00:00] if you're starting your company, take a look at the industry you're trying to go into and identify how it's broken and how you're the solution for it. Take a provocative angle, and there's just something really validating about being able to say we are.
Jay: I wrote the book on X and in the age of self published titles, like it's incredible just how many business books come out every year. It's hundreds and hundreds of thousands more than you could read in a lifetime in one year just in business because there's no barriers to entry anymore.
Dustin: Welcome back to the seven figure lead podcast. I have a real honor today. And I say that sincerely, to [00:01:00] have one of my favorite authors, one of my favorite thought leaders, Jay Papazian joining us today on the podcast. So Jay and I were just, recollecting on how we actually met. We actually met last year at craft and commerce, you know, the kit conference in Boise.
Dustin: And we were actually in the same mastermind room together and didn't meet at all there. Whereas that's some random dinner. And I saw a few people huddled around Jay. I'm like, I know that's the guy. This is like, this is the one thing guy. And so I heard him say to someone about like, I love doing podcast guesting.
Dustin: It's one of the big things we did to sell so many books. And I kind of had nudged my way in and say, Jay, that's kind of what I do. Like, I would love to have you on the show. So, Jay, a warm welcome to you. I'd love for you just to give people a little more context. On who you are, if they somehow don't, know.
Dustin: And then we're going to kind of have a specialty interview today and talk a lot about guesting and its role in your own success. So yeah, Jay, the mic is yours to take us in.
Jay: I love that. And I just got to give you kudos. We laughed about it. You already knew how to pronounce my last name, right? And with yours, you get it. And then you also remember to call it kit [00:02:00] instead of convert kit, which I'm still struggling with.
Dustin: That took me a pause. I will say I had to pause to think about that one, but yes.
Jay: Well done. So my back story is, I think the through line is going to be always writing in books for me.
Jay: That's the theme. When someone says, what's the theme of J's life? It's going to be books in there somewhere close. Thanks. I was writing in high school short stories that my teachers would circulate around that I didn't know about. I majored in English and French with creative writing in undergraduate.
Jay: I went and worked as a translator before coming back and getting a graduate degree in writing with creative writing at NYU. I worked in two publishing houses there, became an assistant editor, helped publish a million copy bestseller called The Body for Life by Bill Phillips.
Dustin: Phillips. Yeah, I read that as a, Slightly younger guy really got me into weightlifting. And, yeah, that's awesome. now that you say that, I'm like, I knew he had a role in that, but that was like one of my favorite books is really transformational in my life. So that's awesome.
Jay: The backstory is I worked for David Hershey, who had been a deputy [00:03:00] editor at Esquire. I was his First editorial assistant and then proudly his assistant editor, right? Cause now the noun is not assistant. The noun is editor, even though it's an assistant one. It was like, woohoo, I'm making it. But they had brought him on to hire like big projects, but he was like a writer, an intellectual and a soccer weenie.
Jay: And that's where we bonded is over soccer. And it was, Oh gosh, Jane, I can't think of her name. Very famous publishing leader. She was leading the company. She signed the book. And assigned it to us, and we were not happy. What do you mean a weightlifting book? I mean, so we took it kind of begrudgingly.
Jay: And that book, I think I heard last it sold over six and a half million copies, which is just crazy. Cause that's really before like Amazon was really a thing, like all of the stuff now. So anyway, that was a great education for me. I married my wife. We moved to Austin, Texas. I started. At this little tiny real estate company back, I was employee 27 for Keller [00:04:00] Williams.
Jay: So I got to wander around with Gary Keller before he was Gary Keller. And, we went from 6, 700 agents to, I think at our highest, 180, 000 in 58 countries. We're slightly below that. Thank you. Interest rates.
Jay: But, It's been a fun journey. And we've written, I guess, 11 books together, six national bestsellers.
Jay: We're probably going to talk about the one thing that is by far our biggest book. It's now sold 3. 6 million copies. But if you just go through there, I worked in bookstores in college. I've got writing degrees. I love to read books and I've somehow become an editor and then a writer of them. So I'm living the dream for me.
Jay: I'm a nerd, a book nerd.
Dustin: nerd. I was gonna say, I think I've heard a lot of your, your interviews. Of course, I'm a podcast consumer as well as a podcaster. And, as we were talking before we recorded a lot of my own entrepreneurial success. has to do with podcasting and podcast guesting specifically. so we've got body for life.
Dustin: You had a big role in millionaire real [00:05:00] estate investor. I see over your right shoulder. And then one thing over your left shoulder, both over a million copies.
Jay: you
Jay: have the millionaire real estate agent and the millionaire real estate investor. It sold a half million. We're not there yet. But like, yeah, I'm fortunate to be a part of three million copy best sellers, which is mind blowing.
Dustin: I think that that's mind blowing for someone who's like, I don't know, like, aspires to be a New York Times bestselling author, , but I think I really respect a lot about you as the process, like you said, you're a book nerd, like you just love books, you love reading and writing and being around it and being all parts of the industry.
Dustin: And it was a big part of your education. And of course, yeah. At some point, maybe when you moved to Austin and met Gary, with your wife, now you guys have a very successful real estate business of your own. And so maybe talk a little bit about that intersection of business with writing because you know, now you're an entrepreneur, you're the vice president and Keller Williams of was strategic content, I think is the, is the
Jay: Yeah, I made it up. So nobody did. It's really hard to cold DM somebody that you don't really know what they do. There's There's people that are head of [00:06:00] content strategy, but together. What does that mean? And I'm that was by intent.
Dustin: You're not showing up on sales navigator for LinkedIn when people put in the keyword they're looking for. I love it. So he has to talk a bit before we get into the podcasting world, just about like, yeah, like how went from Jay, the writer and the editor and the book nerd into Jay, the businessman, the entrepreneur and the thought leader.
Jay: Thank you. I'd like that last one thought leader is weird. But yes, thank you Gary Keller was facing a challenge with the company that he had built We're a great training company They did great content, but it was not fashionable among the top agents in the industry when I joined and I didn't know this, but they had brainstormed what are the things that we could do to put us on the map for the elite people in this industry.
Jay: And they brainstormed a hundred ideas. I think this is a tiny passage in the book, and one of 'em was to write a book. And when I had come to him and kind of found out he was writing a book, I actually bumped into him in the bathroom and [00:07:00] said, I hear you're writing a book. And he confirmed it. He had gone to Dan Sullivan, the strategic coach paid like $10,000 and that's in $2,001.
Jay: Right? Or $2,002. Like there was a lot of money back then. To do like an all day course on how to write a book, and I looked at it, it was like one giant infographic like Dan Sullivan smart, but I was like, that has got nothing to do with how to successfully publish a book like it had some real wisdom into it that we still follow today.
Jay: But it wasn't the whole story. I was like, this is what I used to do. And fast forward because I can nerd out on this a little bit too much. But I'll say this as an entrepreneur, especially if you want it. Any kind of thought I've got, you know, a podcast that I want to be like the voice of an industry, a consultancy.
Jay: You're a coach. A lot of times startups, someone gave me the advice is like, if you're starting your company, take a look at the industry you're trying to go [00:08:00] into and identify how it's broken and how you're the solution for it. Take a provocative angle, and there's just something really validating about being able to say we are.
Jay: I wrote the book on X and in the age of self published titles, like it's incredible just how many business books come out every year. It's hundreds and hundreds of thousands more than you could read in a lifetime in one year just in business because there's no barriers to entry anymore. And that's also why when I started in the industry, The average book would sell 1500 copies and today it's like 15,
Jay: maybe, and maybe I'm missing a zero, but it's still once you add up the family, a few coworkers and a few randos, like that's not many books,
Dustin: yes.
Jay: but it's more about the volume that we're dividing into to get the average.
Jay: And we know that there are outliers like James clear that have sold 20 million and plus, right? So we know what's possible, not what's probable. I don't [00:09:00] think that matters. I think that when a business person decides to write a book about their industry, it is a validating thing and most people will never read it. But when you're pitching yourself as a speaker, as a consultant, whatever, you can say, and we wrote the book. Most busy executives won't get around to that book for a long time, but they, respect the work that goes into it. So we used to teach a class called business by the book, where we would talk to entrepreneurs about why they might consider working with a ghostwriter, working with a writing partner to publish a book that would allow them to be a legit voice in the industry.
Jay: And I'm going to go one more sideways thing because this touches into podcast
Dustin: Yeah.
Jay: and the one thing is really taking off. And I start getting invited on to bigger and bigger podcast and we'll go back and tell the story of [00:10:00] how that all started.
Jay: But now it's Pat Flynn, Amy Porterfield, Lewis house, and they're like super fans of the book when I'm nerding out because I've listened to them for years, right? Yeah. I'm kind of starstruck and they're kind of starstruck and I'm like, what are you starstruck about? And they're like the same thing, but, I had a longer conversation with Lewis house before he wrote his book and Pat Flynn had done something similar.
Jay: And he's like, they had built these huge businesses that sold online training. They had events and they were multimillion dollar businesses. And what they were missing was that foundational piece of intellectual property. And they were so hyper aware, it's like, how much bigger could this be if I built it on the back of a book?
Jay: My aha, as I went to Gary, it's like we did the book, but we didn't do anything else. We have to have our own training company, all of those things. did on the real estate side, but not for the one thing, but it's very validating. And that IP becomes the foundation [00:11:00] for multiple income streams or businesses if you want to build a media company.
Jay: So I'll shut up now.
Dustin: No, this is like, I'm eating this up with a spoon. You can probably see me like grinning and nodding graciously to validate what you said. Not that it needs validation is probably pretty obvious, but I guess to put my own spin on
it, you know, my very first online business was in the marriage world. I have no marriage background.
Dustin: I was an engineer, right? So, but we got involved in marriage ministry and I had something to say and I wrote a blog and started getting a following and I wrote a book and. You know, my wife definitely didn't want to public speak. I'm like, I still have a full time engineering job, but I put this book out self published 15 minute marriage makeover, it's sold more than 15.
Dustin: I don't think it's old, you know, 15, 000, but, somewhere maybe above average. I don't know, but to your point, it was a huge credibility. Play and we sold the book to customers and we created a business around it. But what happened to me that I was like, not expecting at all was we started just getting these random inquiries.
Dustin: Like, Hey, we're this organization in Jackson, Michigan. We'd love for you to come up and be the keynote at our weekend marriage conference, like what, and we hosted marriage retreats and [00:12:00] all this stuff. And then, I've been on a few other businesses, but if you fast forward to today with this business, basically a solo business with the small team, two and a half years in, we hit seven figures last year.
Dustin: We're, you know, I think doing quite well, we found a real niche, with podcast, guesting and selling through your own story and it's become, Painfully apparent to me. It's like, I'm missing the book. So I'm not putting myself as a Pat
Flynn or Lewis Howes or Amy Porterfield, but I do find myself in the same place of like, I built a really good business.
Dustin: We've got a flagship offer. It's really, really good and solid. I really do need a book. And so I've actually been working on a book around podcast guesting and thought leadership in that way. So yeah, so it's, meant to be that we're meeting at this time and stage of my business. Cause I, Totally relate to that.
Dustin: So yeah, thank you for bringing that in. it's exactly what I wanted to hear right now.
Jay: you could do that Pat Flynn and Lewis Howes couldn't do back then is today, you could upload all of the transcripts from your trainings and all of the transcripts from your podcast and create your [00:13:00] own large language model
Dustin: Yes.
Jay: and say, based on this like, it's not going to write the book for you.
Jay: But it could give you some really awesome frameworks. Can you pull the top quotes from all of my podcast and training? You get all of your one liners, right? I think what it can do is speed up the process.
Jay: so, you've been creating the content, and you know the speaks to your avatar customer.
Jay: Now, just, I mean, you've already written the book, you know how hard it is. Now you just have to kind of execute, and that just takes a lot of a high pain threshold and patience.
Dustin: Yes. Yeah. It's funny you say that. So for our, community, we have a tool that we've developed in the past three or four months and we call it Dustin AI. It's kind of tongue in cheek, but it is exactly what you described. It's, basically all of this private coaching and one on one coaching and group coaching and keynotes and LinkedIn thought leadership.
Dustin: I've already assembled that. Yeah. I just need to ask it to, you know, help me write the book, I guess. So, yeah, to, to your point,
Jay: Did you use NotebookLM? What platform did you
Dustin: uh, it's [00:14:00] actually built on Claude. So
Jay: Clod. Okay. it's such a revolving thing. Like, I know people, like some of my author friends that created it as like a chatbot for doing, answering service questions, right? And they are using Clod or NotebookLM. Seems to be the top two answers. But it's incredibly useful as a resource to your people to be able to tap into.
Jay: And what a cool age we live in, right? That it can make us smarter. And I just think it makes us more thorough, like what it does. It's not creativity. It is brute force that we will never do like you would never go back through all of her old coaching calls. You'd never do it, but I will. So, you can make sure that you really didn't miss anything that was good if it's any good at picking.
Jay: Alright, so I've nerded out on that. So I love that you're already
Dustin: We checked our AI box that you have to have in every podcast interview in 2025. We've talked about books and, again, if anyone doesn't know, for some reason, 3. 6 million copies. If you haven't read the one thing, like, I don't know how you are [00:15:00] an entrepreneur and you've never read that. I think it creates a fundamental shift in the way people think about prioritization and scheduling and, focus.
Dustin: So definitely go read that. I asked you this before we recorded, but I'll let you kind of say it on air. As we transitioned into podcasting and the role of podcast guesting and your own growth, about how many podcasts interviews would you say you've conducted, yourself personally?
Jay: I started tracking with my coach in 2013. And so if you include like free webinars, And some paid gigs in there, too. I've never done more than, I think, 36 in one year, because I don't really want to be a traveling speaker, but all together, in the last 12 years, 600.
Dustin: Wow. That's amazing.
Jay: So you're number 601 right here.
Dustin: All right. Sweet. take that. And I think I've, I have this somewhere to, bookmark, but I've got around, you know, a hundred, maybe 90, 90 to a hundred. I built a seven figure meat stick business with it. That was kind of my inception and what drew me into this whole world. yeah, and then this whole business sort of sprung out [00:16:00] of that.
Dustin: And, you know, a couple of years later now, I'm actually, I was joked. I was a professional podcast guest for three and a half years. Like I just did guesting. it was my one thing. It was just like what I did. And then finally about a year ago, I caved and finally admitted having a podcast is good too.
Dustin: And so now I'm on this side of the mic and get the benefit of, interviewing amazing people like Jay. So. If I didn't misquote you, I think, there was a small crowd around you at the dinner in Boise, where I approached you nervously and said, Hey, actually, I'd love to talk to you, more about what I just heard you say.
Dustin: You said something to the effect of, I really turned down the opportunity within reason and within, you know, the bounds of my schedule to do a podcast guesting interview, because it's been so. Fundamental into how we sell books and how we've grown our brand. So is that true? And if so, I'd love for you to kind of talk about how you discovered this, like what role has podcast guesting played?
Dustin: And then we can talk of course, about your own podcast. You've had different iterations of that, including a relaunch of the one thing podcast recently. But I'd love to talk a lot, about guesting. Cause I don't think people talk enough about
Dustin: this.
Jay: So, gosh, when did [00:17:00] this happen? The first year we came out, April 1st, 2013, we sold like over 40, 000 copies in the first month. Lean In came out that same month, so we were number two on the New York Times. We did get number one on the Wall Street Journal, but we never got number one on the New York Times.
Jay: Because, Sheryl Sandberg with the power of Facebook. Which is going to be bigger and minor and the week that I thought we were going to make it because she was starting to fade and we had a good week. I want to say Gwyneth Paltrow came out with a new makeup and was on all the talk shows.
Jay: And I was like, ah, so I can still 1 day. I can still be a number 1 New York Times. How to bestseller I'm close.
Dustin: that Jay noticed, but he didn't actually hit number one and number two. Okay. Yeah.
Jay: Yes. Well, get obsessive during a book launch. You're like updating Amazon. Like what's my ranking? and it's hour to hour. You just get obsessive. Like we spent four and a half years writing the book and this is your baby out in the world. And thankfully I never made myself [00:18:00] read all the one star reviews.
Jay: I did much later, but like I was mostly focused on positive signs, but the book, Started going up like we were selling, thousands per week, in the beginning and then it started to slowly tail and that's so normal, you know, you have a big hump around the launch and all of the interest and we were not doing podcasts.
Jay: Then this is 2013. So it was early in the podcast era, but not you know, it's not like the horse and buggy stage of podcasting, but it was still kind of early. And I remember our sales started dropping. Week over week, it went from, you know, 2000 to 1800 to 1600. And every week like, my publisher's giving me the numbers and we're just dropping like a hundred copies a week.
Jay: And in 2014, in the spring, I just said, I've got to be proactive. So I got with my coach and I said, like we've been focused on doing big things. Like let's host an event. Let's sell corporate sales. Let's pay a lot of money to be in airport bookstores. And [00:19:00] I just said, that's not in my control to do that.
Jay: I can't make a corporation say, yes, I could pitch them. But what are some things within my control that I could actively make at least one little input every week, which follows the book, right? It's about small dominoes you can knock over and build momentum. So sometime in April of the following year, like almost a year after, the book had kind of hit like 400 a week.
Jay: So we had gone from 10, 000 to 400, and I'm kind of thinking maybe this is it, but I got with, my Executive assistant at the time, and I had gotten a few invitations and knew a few people. So I did a little bit of outreach and I got on a couple of podcasts and we started saying yes, because we were getting the request, but I didn't really know what was what just like, Who are these people?
Jay: Never heard of this podcast. And My EA was a gatekeeper. She's trying to protect my time to write the next book. And so she was asking, how [00:20:00] many downloads do you get a week? And she was trying to filter. don't know when it happened, but I finally just kind of said, stop filtering. I will guarantee at least one per week.
Jay: I can know I can find an hour every week if they're willing to accommodate. And we're just going to make sure that every single week. I say yes to one thing that pushes the book and more often than not, that was a podcast because you know how it is. If you rely on interviews, you're always like, gosh, how am I going to get a couple in the bank to get me through spring break with the kids?
Jay: And like, do I have to do another solo episode? And those are so hard, right? Like, how do I do this?
Dustin: the Podcasters Paradox. Yes.
Jay: but if you offer yourself up, it's almost like a gift. I noticed that you talked to entrepreneurs like it was a very simple formula today. It's a very sophisticated I know a lot of people do it mostly through a little bit of outreach, but then at the end of every episode I would just ask, is there anybody else [00:21:00] that you know in this space that you could introduce me to because I'm like, I just told him what I just told you, I'm making a commitment to say yes, and they like, you don't care how small is like, Nope, Lewis house was a tiny podcast at some point.
Jay: So it was like, I just pointed to the giants and said, they all started somewhere.
Dustin: Yep.
Jay: And what I realized is I tracked every week, like, did we get a bump? And it was almost never a direct corollary. But what I believe is true. Is that I'm not going to say that, you're small, but you're probably not like, this is not yet in the top 150 business podcast, right?
Dustin: Totally fair. Yeah.
Jay: Everybody in that middle ground and some people in the earlier stages, they have built out their 1000 vans. They have 500 to 1000 people that have really connected to the seventh figure leap or whatever the podcast was and like, man, that's where I get my value. You know, he knows me, he understands what [00:22:00] my problems are.
Jay: And so you've got a high trust relationship. And when you say, I can't believe you haven't read this book, you really should get by it. What do they do? At the very least, they put it on their list. And so I started seeing over months,
like it took a long time that it started going from 400 to 500. And we started, I always go back to that moment, April of 2014, I think for five straight years, we started selling more books quarter over quarter and year over year in a row.
Dustin: Wow.
Jay: So like we thought we were about to crater, but then it started this long climb. And at some point, I think it was COVID that just knocked us off. We were starting to flatten by then because that's, I mean, a 10 year old book is a 10 year old
Jay: book. You're heading up into that territory, but it was still selling like, and when COVID hit, we were still selling 1200 a week.
Dustin: Wow.
Jay: And so, and that's just hardcovers, right? Not the 40 translations and everything else that [00:23:00] happens. So you look up and you're like, okay, this matters. This actually matters, but it's like PR.
Dustin: Yes.
Jay: It's so hard to trace. And I've experimented, do I want to give them a link? And a discount. And it just, seemed like way too much work to outsmart it.
Jay: Just like, trust the process. There will be interviews where I learn something. There will be interviews where, like you, like, you know I've been on a lot of podcasts. And you picked and asked permission, which I thought was super classy, to go at a very specific
Jay: And it's also something that almost nobody interviews me about around the book,
Dustin: Right, right.
Jay: so it's more fun for me,
Jay: right? I don't have to regurgitate the same 10 stories. And actually, anybody who's even a fan of mine. I do know that you have to repeat them somewhat. I'm trying to think of my friend's name. Justin.
Jay: I'm going [00:24:00] is too late in the afternoon. Justin is a huge guy on LinkedIn and he was teaching a class at a mastermind. I was with And he goes, I used to think I had to come up with something original every day because he posts every single day every single day at the same time, he will interact for 15 minutes.
Jay: That's his whole strategy.
Dustin: is it just in Welch?
Jay: Yes, thank you Justin Welch genius and he asked the question Jay if you go see your favorite rock band Give me one of your favorite classics. I'll be like, okay like old school rush or you know, whatever he goes like great Do you want them to play their latest album?
Jay: I'm like, no God. No,
Dustin: No way.
Jay: your favorite bands to play their greatest hits and that also gave me permission to To recycle stories, because people want to hear them again and again, because that's meaningful to them and they may learn a new lesson this time. So, all I have to say, April 2014, I just made a commitment to average [00:25:00] 50 of these a year.
Jay: And, I've not always done it, like last year I got busy and I think I did 39 or something. But I give myself grace, but impetus is there, if I can get it on my schedule. I'm going to say yes, and I'm going to show up as best I can because I think it's super beneficial to whatever you're building, whether it's just your personal validity or you're trying to sell a service or a product.
Jay: So I'll shut up, but I am an advocate of what you do.
Dustin: I really, really. Love that. love, I love this visual, you know, at the engineering background, it's in this graph of like the spike and then the slow dwindle and you, you hit this low point. Right. But something, whether we can point it at podcast, guessing, or just your intent or whatever that is, it created an inflection point and it started rising back up.
Dustin: Substantially over five years, like that energy went somewhere and it created momentum. And part of what we love to teach people is I always say
like everything about podcast guesting is awesome. You know, it's free. It's relational. We'll talk about some of these other things with like
Dustin: creating
Jay: [00:26:00] don't have to travel.
Dustin: You don't have to travel. The only real downside is it's kind of slow, right? It's like you got to book the thing, you got to schedule it, they got to publish it. And then it's, got a long tail life, which is great, but you know, you do get a bit of a spike when it gets published, but for the most part, it's kind of a slow burn rate, slow consumption.
Dustin: And so the compounding effect is what becomes so powerful in that sort of environment, I guess, that of marketing approach. And so what we always tell people is stick with it. If you can average one a week, you will definitely see results like, it's work for you and it's kind of, it's right in line with the one thing, right?
Dustin: It's like, you just keep pushing the domino and it's going to compound and you're going to get results. You have to be a little patient with that. And the other thing I say, which is both an incentive for people to stay patient and just my own reality. And now, you know, working with a couple hundred clients in this world.
Dustin: There's also these what I call unicorns, right? So, an analogy I like to say is, Hey, every time I'm on a, let's say, you know, guesting. Every time I do that, I'm planning a seed, right? Like I'm planning a seat. I'm creating a relationship with this host.
Dustin: There's some people in our audience. It might be [00:27:00] 10 people. It might be 10, 000. And now there's all these other guests that I've kind of have permission to interact with. And I'm kind of in the cool kids club with them. Like there's all these cool. Cool. Subtle benefits and I'm planting these seeds you reap and you sow, right?
Dustin: So, are you sowing your reap? I should say, so I'm sowing all these seeds and some of those do pop like, oh man, like I met this guy. We did an immediate collaboration. It was amazing. Or Hey, five years later, for some reason, this person found this interview and they hired, you know, this, that was
my fire Creek store.
Dustin: We got a Walmart from being on a podcast that was like 18 months old. that's why I was wanting to tap into a little bit with you sort of set the stage to say, if you're listening and you're like, I think this is cool. I think I'd enjoy it. I'd be good at it. Do it and get the consistent downloads and the things you would expect from it.
Dustin: But realize the unicorns are fact that this is a human to human marketing channel and that you're actually building relationship capital and you just don't know who's going to hear what or who's going to introduce you to who. like literally, it's. You know, Russell Brunson with ClickFunnels, it's kind of cliche.
Dustin: You're one funnel away, right? Like I like to say one relationship away. I can literally change your life. I mean, one new [00:28:00] person and podcast guessing is such a great way to plant those seeds and create the opportunity, the surface area for that luck. And so I'd love Jay. if anything comes to mind, you're like, yeah, because I.
Dustin: Invested this like weekly effort, which is what also we encourage people to do. Just do it once a week on, you know, consistently, is there any sort of like key relationships or moments that you're like, yeah, had I not done that, this crazy unicorn event would not have happened. Even though I couldn't predict it in advance.
Dustin: I'm so glad I invested that effort.
Jay: Okay, so I'm going to make one nuance thing because I don't want to imply something else, because that's the engineer in me. I'm not actually
Jay: an engineer, but I think I could have done I kind of feel like the podcast, our flywheel was slowing down a big, heavy
Jay: flywheel and the podcast were kind of padding it like you would trying to get it to start slow down and move the other direction.
Jay: The other thing, which I think was really important, which is also germane to this conversation. Is the book was in fact pretty good and it created word of mouth
Dustin: Yes.
Jay: and I also look and say, all those people that 40, [00:29:00] 000 people who bought it the first month, how often, unless it's fiction, do you read it the same month you buy it?
Dustin: Right.
Jay: Our customers often have stacks and stacks of books
Dustin: By definition, they're too busy. They're, yeah, they're, they're like needing help with prioritization. They're probably not picking it up and reading it cover to cover. Right.
Jay: and it takes us a certain number of people say, have you read this book? Have you read this book where they'll finally move it to the top. So I think. The outreach was about 50 percent and about 50 percent was word of mouth. Finally, all of those people were like, wow, I just read the best book or whatever.
Jay: And now I'm hearing it from Carly in the office and I'm hearing this guy on my favorite podcast. And you're like, oh, okay, I need to now I now have enough trust to make the investment. Like there's this thing that the quality of what you're talking about needs to be good enough. For you to have the opportunity to have testimonials and word [00:30:00] of mouth out there to create some other social evidence, right?
Jay: For people to invest in whatever it is that you want them to do. Dustin: Yes.
Jay: So, all that to say, I would tell you, we just did an analysis, this morning. I had our director of growth, and I don't remember the stats, but I will tell you of all of our lead sources. The ones that yield the most qualified customers for our group coaching, for our one on one coaching and our corporate their bookleads,
I read the book or I heard the podcast and it could be heard you on a podcast either way.
Jay: What happens is, is they read the book. They heard me on a podcast or the podcast, and they either end up on my email list or listening to our podcast or both, and then they become a customer. So, like, not to overcomplicate it, those are super validating things,
Dustin: talk a lot about kind of the Holy Trinity of book, podcast, [00:31:00] podcast, guesting, or state, you know, whatever kind of stages is most appropriate. Podcast guesting is obviously a super accessible version. And at least for me, like every. Physical stage I've been on came in some form or fashion from the podcast guesting, you know, energy or seeds that were planted.
Dustin: So, yeah, we could talk for another two hours about podcast guesting. We won't. Cause I know, you know, you got a few other things to
Jay: but we will, but like, it also yields all the fruit. I'll just say, if I can, and I know people who do, they get permission to record on their side, and they create clips and all kinds of stuff. So. Whether it's your own podcast or the other, now almost everybody's got a VA somewhere creating reels from the podcast, they'd end up on social and you can amplify them.
Jay: I just say, like, it's a heavily leveraged activity. It's a low cost of time. If you're knowledgeable about your subject, it's a low energy requirement, right? If I'm giving an hour long presentation, that's four hours of work for me, an hour long interview. [00:32:00] It's about 15 minutes of prep. Who's the host?
Jay: What's the topic? What's the audience? And sometimes that happens in the warm up. So I just think, and it lives out there for as long as it's publicly available. I just think it's one of the most leveraged thing you can do. And I think Tim Ferriss and James Clear both said the same thing last year in January when they were on the Tim Ferriss show about how important it was to say yes to these.
Dustin: need to go flag that tape and get, I'll have the, I'll have, I'll have you guys lined up saying podcast guesting is the best thing. No, I, I love that Jay. And,
Jay: it was more impactful than good morning America.
Dustin: yeah, and actually I think it was, yeah,
Jay: That's my memory, right? Is that within January, James Clare was on the Tim Ferriss show and they did a masterclass on best selling books. I made my son, who was my intern, go, and because you can't quote the Tim Ferriss podcast without his permission, or so his website says. And I don't really want to tick
Dustin: You don't want to test it.
Jay: I don't have to test it. [00:33:00] But I do think, I just said, I want you to listen to this and I want you to have every single takeaway. What are all the things they say we should do and then we'll go validate them. So anyway, yes could go geeky about this for a long time
Dustin: I do want to turn, again, and we can talk about podcast guesting forever, but I do want to shine a light on what you're up to right now, which believe you said you guys recently relaunched the one thing podcast. So coming back to the hosting side of the mic, I'd love for you to tell people what that's about, why they should tune in.
Dustin: to be completely transparent. I didn't know that I haven't listened. I was listening to some of your guesting experiences, so I'm like really excited cause I listened to the previous version. So is it a guest format? Is it more of a thought leader? Is it, you as Gary involved?
Dustin: I'd love to know a little bit more about what you guys are envisioning for this new version of the podcast. Yeah,
Jay: eight years ago next month. so we're like on episode 480 something now, weekly podcast. My co founder Jeff Woods was the original host. I launched that business with him and he ran the day to day [00:34:00] IP, That's a long story. ended up parting ways about two and a half years ago, and so we tried a couple of other podcast hosts.
Jay: I was trying, like, I don't really want the job back. Like, I helped birth the company. I did a lot of that, and I love it, but I want to focus on, my core strengths. But I eventually became the CEO of the company, and I just started working backwards from when I knew I could say yes to it.
Jay: I had to earn the right to say yes. But in November, November 11th of 2024, I had been preparing for a few months to relaunch it.
Jay: our audience had been diminishing since my co founder left because they were attached to him. He was fantastic. Okay, just fantastic. And it just hadn't worked. And we were running the same play.
Jay: one out of every seven or eight would be just the two co hosts teaching a lesson, kind of like a solo episode. The rest were interviews. And I could, like, get Jamie Kern Lima. I was getting Will Gudera. I could get some pretty good guests because they're people in my [00:35:00] masterminds for authors.
Jay: But it wasn't making a difference. And so, I was like, okay, this is Top into the funnel for this business and I'm in charge of it. Now. I need to take ownership I need to get out from the shadows and into the light And I did 50 customer interviews. So I give credit to Tim Grawl I don't know if you went to his workshop or
Dustin: I did not make it to his workshop, but I'm a big fan of Tim's work too.
Jay: I love Tim Grawl run story grid he was trying to fix his funnel and he opened up his calendar on his podcast and said I'm opening it up for 50 one on ones and And he just interviewed people. What do you like, what do you wish we were doing? And I did the same thing. He gave me the play. I ran the plate.
Jay: My poor chief of staff slash EA Carly. Like it was painful for her to try to find 50 appointments in a very short period of time for me. But I learned a lot. And what they told me was everybody who shows up on the podcast is on 10 other ones because they're launching a book. They [00:36:00] don't really care about that anymore.
Jay: If they're going to be on the podcast, they want to hear about the one things like I'm listening to the one thing podcast because I'm trying to live it and it's not complicated, but it's really hard. they wanted it shorter and they wanted it to be focused. And so now I just say I've done about half of them are solo, which is just me taking a narrow topic and doing about 15 minutes before the break and 15 minutes after.
Jay: I try to keep them all around 30 minutes, which everybody says I love it. Before I started, we looked at our stats. 80 percent of people were dropping in the first 7 minutes.
Dustin: Wow.
Jay: So they were listening and deciding is this an episode I'll actually complete and they would wait long enough to get past the pre roll ad and then hear what the podcast and they were making a decision.
Jay: Yes or no, right there. we brought in a podcast producer and she coached me. We're not going to do any preambles on air. we just did this, so I feel bad, but like, let me tell you the [00:37:00] backstory. It's like, this is an audience that you will get to that story, but you're going to start with something that actually captures.
Jay: So we'll go back and record the intro and we'll design it to get people to that first hook, but she's like, start over. I once did an hour long solo recording and I said, how did that go? She goes, I think we can salvage five minutes. I was like,
Dustin: Brutal.
Jay: I appreciate it. Right. I was like, that's good advice.
Jay: So now when I bring on a guest, I'll just say, hey. You're familiar with the one thing. If you're not, that's my job. Normally, I think you're used to people asking you questions, but I'm going to participate too, but I'm going to be taking your ideas, which the one thing idea is infused in every success story.
Jay: It's so easy to find. And all I'm going to do is pull that thread out. Sounds like you're lining up your dominoes. It sounds like maybe your time blocking, right? We call it a time block. You're making an appointment with you. Oh, yeah, that's exactly what I do. All I'm doing is doing that. And now 80 [00:38:00] percent of people are listening to the end.
Dustin: Wow.
Jay: And so we saw about a 40 percent uptick in the first 30 days in audience. So, Yay. This is like an April 2014 story. You know, I've been watching it decline since Jeff left, and now we're starting that. But we have a new formula, and there's a great essay by Tim Ferriss. That was forwarded to me, where he wrote the new rules for podcasting.
Jay: He took three months off, I think, where he was just running the best of, and he just thought about it. And he even said, no more book launch interviews unless it's a good friend. Right. So like he hit a few of those notes and it was very validating. It's like, Oh, wow. We reached some of the same conclusions because people want something fresh and they want it on topic for thing that they're there for. that's where we are. We're only 60 days into it. I'm just barely hitting my stride. But I feel more confident and I've got more process now [00:39:00] about how do I pick a topic? How do I shape that into about 20 to 30 minutes of content? How do I interview someone in a way that honors why they they're there with the wind for them?
Jay: They're giving us their time and knowledge. But also make it a win for our audience. And the truth is, if I invited you on the one thing podcast, like you
don't want to disappoint the listener. So we'll find a way two things can be true. We can be making them happy and also reaching your goals.
Dustin: Yes. Yeah. Total win win relationship or win win win where it's good for you. It's good for the guests. It's good for the audience. I love that. And congratulations on the relaunch and the thoughtfulness, that went into that. And despite the way that we recorded the opening here, one of the things that we like to do, we have a very talented producers.
Dustin: They will pull those. Quotables out, put them in the beginning and get the
Jay: As soon As it came out of my mouth, I was like, Oh God, it sounds like I'm criticizing this podcast. No,
Dustin: kind of horrible at this. We learned this is the wrong thing. we do that at it. We pull the things out because I totally agree as a listener, like, and Nathan Barry does a great job since [00:40:00] he's rebranded
Jay: Oh
Jay: man, it's so good. He has those hooks and then he plays the podcast. Now you're waiting. Like, when are they going to get to that part?
Jay: It's so good.
Dustin: So I think that's a good tactic. And the other thing I think in my own experience being in this industry and being behind the mic for 50 or 60 episodes now that I hear through qualitative feedback, you know, I'll be at a conference and someone's like, Hey, I really, I love this interview you did with Jay, but there's always this sort of admission, but I really like it when you do the solo episodes.
Dustin: Right. And I think that if someone's in the podcasting world and they're a host and they exclusively do interviews, it's good. And they're a thought leader. I think they're losing a lot of, cachet that they could be capturing if they would just do some solo content, because it's great to have guests and you build relationships and that's fresh content.
Dustin: And it's frankly easier most of the time, but that solo content is really what gives you the credibility. It's where most of your clips and your, golden nuggets are going to come out. And so I just encourage people, if you're a host.
Devote yourself to spending, you know, a third up to a half would be perfect of [00:41:00] solo time and then, you know, supplement that with guests.
Dustin: So I love that you're following that model and you're seeing the early success.
Jay: that's so cool. You just made me think of something and you can tell me cause you're an expert like in the blog world or the newsletter world, you could have guests post. Has anybody done a guest solo episode on someone else's podcast? Is that a thing?
Dustin: It's kind of a thing. And so, I honestly don't remember her name. There's a fairly prominent podcaster who did a version of this where she's just recently, she took a hiatus. It got kind of floated to me as an opportunity and I passed on it, but she was basically renting out her audience. Like come be a guest host.
Dustin: Kind of like when, Jimmy Kimmel would be the guest host of the tonight show or whatever, right. They would come in and do a stay. And so that's like a version. that wasn't really my thing. One thing I've done and this actually the very first episode of this podcast, I had my coach come on and I said, frankly, I'm really comfortable being a guest.
Dustin: This is the first time I've hosted a show. And so our very first episode is her interviewing me. So I'm the guest on my own show the very first time. And it was like, so good because. [00:42:00] You know, she got me emotional. She was asking me, we dug into my values and my backstory. And she's really, really just a talented interviewer.
Dustin: And then our one year anniversary, she came back and hosted again with me in the seat, talking about the year in review. And so we were like, we got this tradition we're going to do. my wife won't do it, but if I got my wife behind the mic, she might make me cry more, but, Cassie, my coach, she's a master of getting me deep, drawing out some, things that get beyond the surface level of like why we do what we do. And on this show, we did this sort of through the story of podcast guesting today, but a lot of the emphasis I like to have.
Dustin: Just talk a little inside baseball and podcasting is I really like to get into like, why are you the way you are? Like, what drives you? Why are you an entrepreneur? Why do you do the, industry that you're in? And I think that
makes it unique even if someone's kind of on there to talk about their book or whatever.
Dustin: So we, we try that. And
Jay: you know what your audience wants. I love that.
Jay: I'm trying to think of the guy at craft and commerce. He was the speaker coach, Mike, and it starts
Dustin: Mike, Mike, Mike, Pacquiao. Yeah.
Jay: I can. I
Jay: was in a [00:43:00] workshop with them and I don't want to take it off of my screen, but I've got a green sticky note. That was my takeaway from, he did a little mastermind session we were at Mo Benel's mastermind.
Jay: he just said, when you're on someone's podcast guesting, a great phrase to bring in is maybe you. Have you heard this?
Dustin: I don't think I've heard this. So yeah, please elaborate. And I have my own little mic story before we close. So
Jay: Okay, great. given the topic of guessing, like this is something that was so important. I have a posted note to try to get me to remember to look for opportunities. I really am better at it in my solo because there's more opportunities. But maybe you're listening to this and you're thinking, but how would I to do A whole podcast every week or maybe you're wondering like but what will my family think when they hear that podcast, right?
Jay: That may be you is like a pattern interrupt for the listener. They're out Multitasking
Dustin: yes,
Jay: they're vacuuming. They're driving mow the yard jogging whatever and they're [00:44:00] listening But it takes a little bit of a pattern interrupt and that may be you as you reaching through the microphone to the audience and I was just like going through this with Carly.
Jay: We were doing prep and she's like. Why do you do like the threes or whatever? I just said, I don't know everything about the listener, but I was like, maybe you struggle with consistency. Maybe you struggle with focus. Maybe you don't know what to focus on, like three. There's power in threes. And if you know your audience, you kind of know one of those is going to hit home and that's all that matters.
Jay: But now you've got them re engaged.
Jay: that was some of the most brilliant advice. Yeah. And now I hear like the Mel Robbins in the world. Like, Oh wow. They use that word. So anyway, that's me nerding out one last time on you.
Dustin: it's so good, actually, and I'm hosting this big summit, so I've had like 35 interviews in the past 8 weeks, it's
Dustin: insane, but, one of the conversations came in about, if you're doing a podcast interview, and I'm totally guilty of this today, I'm kind of a fanboy of Jay, and I'm just like, really, in tune with Jay, [00:45:00] and I'm like, have a connection, , I wanna hear him well and respond to him.
Dustin: But they said, if you do really well, you're actually speaking to the audience and that can feel weird to the guests. So a way to do that, I don't remember the phrase wasn't maybe you, but that's the one I just wrote down in circle three times. But the idea of when you say maybe you, I'm not talking maybe you, Jay, I'm saying maybe you listener.
Dustin: And so it's, inviting them in back into the conversation after they zone out. And so I love that. That's such a great. Device, to use. And then one thing I would say about Mike, so Mike's a really cool guy. And I met him through John Mies, through a mastermind that I'm in. And,
Jay: I know John. John was at that mastermind too. That's cool.
Dustin: So he, he won't mind me saying this, on my own show, but, so Mike, actually there's a couple of lessons here, so I'll, I'll boil it down. So what you said, you actually said Amy Porterfield and he said, Pat Flynn and Lewis house. And so one of the lessons I kind of want to share here is they all started somewhere, right?
Dustin: And so it just so happens that when Mike was in corporate and he was starting his speech coaching. Amy Porterfield and Pat and James Clear, all these people were like his early clients before they had big [00:46:00] platforms.
Dustin: And so he has these amazing, I don't know whether you call it luck or what he was right place, right time.
Dustin: But he has these amazing relationships with people who are now like the best of the best thought leaders and big platforms. So Amy was one of those so he helped her in the early days of her like first stage appearances. And then you know that relationship has continued because Mike's an awesome guy and and he stayed in contact.
Dustin: So recently meaning in the past six months. He had the opportunity to go on Amy's show, you know, marketing made simple. One of the biggest marketing podcasts out there.
Dustin: and and this is another lesson. Mike is the guy you go to for your signature talk, right? He coached everyone at craft and commerce. Like this is his thing.
Dustin: Mike texted me and said, I'm nervous. I don't want to screw this up. It's a huge opportunity. I don't even know like how to introduce myself. He is like, so like in his own head. And so I actually did a coaching session with him.
Dustin: We
Dustin: recorded it and I actually coached him through, his preparation frame. We actually did three different sessions.
Dustin: And we started with like, what's going to be your call to action and what would be the lead magnet for her [00:47:00] audience? And then what stories you want to tell that build on that and, you know, and then all the way back to the introduction. So we did this like really cool coaching consulting session and he nailed it.
Dustin: It ended up being like a six figure, you know,
Jay: Yeah. He made 150, 000 from your coaching. He talked to, he told that story. It was like
Dustin: You need, You need, to mention my name in the story, but no, I'm joking. But, but yeah,
Jay: He could trace back to that lead magnet on that show because he was purposeful. I love that. The power of pursuing something with intention.
Dustin: Absolutely. So you don't need to be on Amy's show, but if you get the chance, you know, not only do it, but prepare well, you know, seek, seek the advice of an expert or some name, an expert, someone to give you some outside perspective, because it's so hard to read your own label.
Dustin: He's the best at the thing he does. And he needed someone else to help him with it. And I feel like that's universal, right? Like we
Dustin: all need that help. Well, Jay, you've been extremely generous with your time. I want to make this a win for you and, you know, any way I can.
Jay: Dude, I'll come back anytime. I've had so much fun. You're so easy to talk to. This is really genuinely just been a fun, fun talk for me. So thank you for having me.
Dustin: Well, I'm, I'm, I'm [00:48:00] very much take that to heart and accept that. I'm grateful for, for that, that response, that those kind of words. We were a little over the place as far as like, what's Jay up to and how can we make, you know, grow Jay's business, but where would be the best place to go next if they're people are like, I need some more Jay in my life.
Dustin: I want to know more about, this new podcast or the one thing. Is there a central home base we can send them to?
Jay: So there's two places I show up every week. I'm on the One Thing podcast. And I have a newsletter. I was at Craft and Commerce for a reason. And it's called the 20 percenter
Dustin: Yeah.
Jay: and I write every Friday at 7 a. m. and the podcast drop at Monday, whenever time podcast drop on Monday. And sometimes they're connected, but they haven't, I haven't quite yet, but it's, I'll say this, preparing for podcast and writing newsletters.
Jay: I've, I've decided I wrote a few weeks ago. They're kind of additive activities. I kept thinking I'll run out of ideas, [00:49:00] but both of them tend to create more ideas than I can pursue. And so they've given me more creative energy than taken it away. It is sometimes a grind. I'll note like, Oh, this weekend, I'd really like to just watch football and not write an article.
Dustin: A lot of playoff games on. Yeah.
Jay: but, no, it's great. So those would be the two places. If you want to listen, definitely the podcast. It's like we. Just talk about the journey, the courage it takes as a leader, as a founder to do less better instead of just doing all the stuff. And it's hard. It makes total sense, but life shows up and we just try to tell, reinforce again and again, the power of small, consistent action over time and how that, you know, the tortoise always wins, right?
Jay: They just do on a long enough timeline. They're going to win every time. And that's something everybody can achieve.
Dustin: I love that. Yeah. It sounds like there's a, it's put my Nathan Berry hat on something. There's an emerging flywheel between your podcast solo episodes, at least in the, in the [00:50:00] newsletter. Right. So,
Jay: It's going the other way. Like I've been mining the newsletter To help me create the outlines and it's been really great because I was like, oh I forgot I told that story two years ago
Dustin: That makes total sense. Cause you're a writer first. I'm a, I'm a words guy first. I love the, I love the verbally processing. So for me, the podcast becomes newsletter, but for you, yeah. Writing and that's, that's your flow state. And then you take the best ideas from that and make podcast content. Yeah.
Dustin: That's awesome.
Jay: You got it
Dustin: Jay, you're, you're a treasure, man. Thanks so much for being here. I'm really grateful for it. And I look forward to continuing our conversations and many other formats to come, hopefully.
Jay: I hope to see you in Boise in june
Dustin: Yeah, I'll be there. All right. We'll see you, man. Thanks.
Jay: Thanks [00:51:00] [00:52:00]